Page 38 of 64

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 16 Feb 2013 04:11
by Ryan
Worldenterer1 wrote:I now understand what it is you mean. I was mistaken before. But even if all life did not exist, why would rocks floating in space and time cease to exist? ;)

Let me ask you an equally unanswerable question...

What happens to the environment of your dream when you wake up? :)

See? There are more possibilities out there than some would have you think. It's about stepping outside the two boxes which we've conveniently and neatly labeled "physical" and "non-physical".

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 16 Feb 2013 06:43
by taniaaust1
Jack Reacher wrote:
taniaaust1 wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? I mean, how would the universe have existed before humans then? (Assuming it did, which most evidence points too)



I too believe we are all Gods. When I say that.. I see us as not being "human" as such and hence being around maybe even before this universe existed.

Its not a belief in which I expect all to understand what I believe.

Maybe this world may be a world we are only dreaming.. made up by us .. just like our dreams are made up by us. A world that our waking human selves percieve as they do, just like the DCs think their world is real.


Intersting belief, what reasons do you have for choosing to believe this?


I actually believe what I do due to various experiences Ive had, tests of reality Ive done and I found that we can alter this reality and have it go to how we want.. just like we can with dreams.

eg I'd read about powerful lamas who just manifest their needs and believed in the stuff the book "The Secret" talks about (it was my belief system even before I read it.. like a knowing thing and also something i'd experiemented with a little.. just manifesting things I wanted here and there at times) but one day I was in this situation were I wanted to go interstate and do a course for a few days with my teacher who was coming from oversease.. but I had no money at all. So decided I'd actually try to "live" my beliefs.. and manifest ALL my needs like the powerful lamas do. This was the greatest test of my beliefs Ive done yet. My family thought i was crazy.. I only had money for the plane tickets (spent my normal grocery on them) and that was it. No money for anywhere to stay, no money for buses/trains, no money for food.. heading to a place where i didnt have any friends to back me up or anything.. yet I was determined to head interstate moneyless and live according to my "manifestation" beliefs to Manifest reality.

Anyway it worked out amazingly.. I had a great time away and all my needs were met... I manifested with my thoughts (just like we do in our LDs).. people then approached me and asked where I was heading.. when I said.. they go "well we are going that way too.. do you want to share our taxi". A guy out of the blue gave me his hotel room (he was only using it for 2-3 hrs to catch up on sleep during the day before he had to head off but had paid for a full night).... then next night I got given a room to stay in FREE for 2 more days where my course was .. someone had booked a room at the place but didnt show up and the room had already been paid for and with that room included the meals (I didnt end up sleeping on the street or going hungry at all.. instead I had all you can eat gormet meals in that room the whole time i was away :D .. better then what I'd got had I taken money with me).

Note.. I didnt do any begging or anything or even ask anyone for anything.. everything I got i just thought about and then out of the blue was offered to me. I even come home with several gifts..3 DVDs I wanted. Things got crazy.. I almost got some jewelry too.. a ring I really wanted I was offered one exactly like one I'd been looking at in a store window but I think it was stolen so I knocked it back (cause I didnt know how that karma would play out if I accepted a ring I'd manifested but was stolen by another..so I saw it as being contaminated).

Ive also had other experiences of things which arent meant to be possible in this world.

As i also remember past lives (well not all just some of mine).. I also know I have been other then human in some of those. I also have a vague memory of before I was ever human for the first time on this planet. I came here (not in human form) with another.

.....

So what I advise is test out this reality to see for yourself (just as you create in a LD)..start off slow as if you have doubts it will block the manifestion from occuring. I started off with simple things.. a video recorder I needed, a tv...a surf board (another me in another dimesion helped me with that, my manifested surfboard is called "Dream Weaver).. manifesting things like that. Then a car.... and then finally those 3 days away manifesting ALL my needs. I personally do not do this often.. only when I have a very strong desire for something which I cant afford. (as I think karmic spiritual principles also may come into play and I dont want go and use up all my good karma).

I think my past experience in controlling my thoughts in LDs and manifesting there.. helped with all this.

anyway.. my beliefs come from my own experiences.

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 00:26
by Worldenterer1
Ryan wrote:What happens to the environment of your dream when you wake up? :)


That makes no sense because your dream environment depends on you. You are creating it and experiencing it. When you wake up, you are no longer creating or experiencing, but the memories remain. Real things like rock, and water. Those are outside your body and don't depend on you to stay in existence. All a dream environment really is, is brain chemicals and signals. Yes, I just answered the unanswerable! 8-)

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 01:29
by Ryan
Worldenterer1 wrote:That makes no sense because your dream environment depends on you. You are creating it and experiencing it. When you wake up, you are no longer creating or experiencing, but the memories remain. Real things like rock, and water.

See this is the problem...

Do you know this for a fact? You KNOW, for a fact what a dream is... you KNOW, for a fact what this physical reality is.

You're simply assuming what "real" is and what this physical reality is.
This is what's called a pseudo-belief. Humanity is absolutely rife with this kind of thinking. You're pretty much raised to believe this, so I can't really blame you for it, but there's no real proof of anything you say "is how it is". I don't mean this to offend, but you're stuck in a box. Is that box correct? Are you comfortable with saying, "I don't know"? I am.

Ask yourself this: What if this reality is similar to a dream (aka: non-physical)? I've seen and experimented with many things which has at least provided me with enough insight to CONSIDER this possibility.

WHAT IF? :)
Think about what that would mean... open yourself to the possibilities.

Those are outside your body and don't depend on you to stay in existence. All a dream environment really is, is brain chemicals and signals.

Then that means you're a materialist, correct? You believe that the physical body is exactly what it seems to be, and there's no reason to question it? If so, this discussion is just going to keep going around and around with no end...

Yes, I just answered the unanswerable! 8-)

You do realize that you haven't answered anything, right? That your answers only rely upon pseudo-beliefs and assumptions which are impossible to prove, right? :)

Simply put, you believe one way... I'm open to alternative possibilities.

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 04:53
by Worldenterer1
Ryan wrote:You're simply assuming what "real" is and what this physical reality is.
This is what's called a pseudo-belief. Humanity is absolutely rife with this kind of thinking. You're pretty much raised to believe this, so I can't really blame you for it, but there's no real proof of anything you say "is how it is". I don't mean this to offend, but you're stuck in a box. Is that box correct? Are you comfortable with saying, "I don't know"? I am.

Ask yourself this: What if this reality is similar to a dream (aka: non-physical)? I've seen and experimented with many things which has at least provided me with enough insight to CONSIDER this possibility.

WHAT IF? :)
Think about what that would mean... open yourself to the possibilities.


Don't think you can catch me with that dumbfounded look of realization on my face. I have thought of all of this kind of stuff before and already considered everything you're saying a long time ago. I have used the information I have available to me, to come to the best possible conclusion. Do not take me as a pseudo believer, not even for a single second, please.

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 06:05
by Ryan
Worldenterer1 wrote:Don't think you can catch me with that dumbfounded look of realization on my face. I have thought of all of this kind of stuff before and already considered everything you're saying a long time ago. I have used the information I have available to me, to come to the best possible conclusion. Do not take me as a pseudo believer, not even for a single second, please.

You can deny having pseudo-beliefs all you want (we *ALL* have them in some way, shape or form... even I do, they're inescapable as a part of simply being human [an example is that most people talk about "dreams" as if humanity has any idea what they actually are, when in fact we don't]), it doesn't change the fact that you've based your opinions upon them... and have now said you're unwilling to even consider another perspective.

That's fair enough though. I've always said that people need to come to their own conclusions on their own time. In which case, I respect your choices... they build the kind of person you are and who you will become.

And please, I hope I didn't offend... so if I came across as such, I do apologize.

((and wow, I'm really not liking the smiley's on this forum, I just noticed that they all seem so sarcastic looking... ROFL!))

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 10:29
by Worldenterer1
Ryan wrote:[an example is that most people talk about "dreams" as if humanity has any idea what they actually are, when in fact we don't]), it doesn't change the fact that you've based your opinions upon them... and have now said you're unwilling to even consider another perspective.


I am always willing to consider other perspectives. I'm just saying that it seems like you're trying to say that just because we cannot be 100% sure of how something works, that it probably doesn't work the way we think it does. I just find this point of view to be very difficult to agree with. :D (Sarcastic smiley!)


Ryan wrote:That's fair enough though. I've always said that people need to come to their own conclusions on their own time. In which case, I respect your choices... they build the kind of person you are and who you will become.


I don't see what my ideas are on the topic of dreamscapes as being my own conclusion. I see it as the common sensical answer that anybody will get when they look at things that have been proven and add 'em up.

Ryan wrote:And please, I hope I didn't offend... so if I came across as such, I do apologize.


No worries at all. I'm so easygoing that I would even go as far as saying that you probably couldn't offend me even if you tried! 8-) Oh, wait, is that another pseudo belief!? :o :) (Legit Smiley)

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 14:17
by Summerlander
It's simple.

The real world might be subjectively experienced by living beings but two beings can confirm and agree upon the existence of its objects. The same is not true about dreams. As I have stated in a previous example, a human being will detect a mountain at a distance using his visual sense. A bat will detect it with sound waves. Although each creature experiences the mountain differently, both experience the mountain. The mountain has an objective existence.

If a person is going to claim that the moon ceases to objectively exist when they are not looking at it, then they must also ask themselves whether or not other people cease to exist when they are not looked at. This belief appears flawed and appears somewhat solipsistic.

I am also a bit confused about what is meant by pseudo-belief. What kind of jargon is this? You either believe in something or you don't. And then there is knowing, which requires you to be certain about something. Logically, if you are certain about something, you have strong evidence that justifies your certainty beyond all shadow of a doubt.

And then we also have beliefs that are justified. I have no way of knowing for sure that other people are conscious like me. However, I believe they are conscious based on the fact that their behaviour is more or less like mine. I intuit their minds and will address their behaviour accordingly. We develop our theories of mind all our lives and how other people respond to us seems to confirm our conclusion that they are conscious too. It would be impractical of me to subscribe to solypsism, because, if I did, I would have no reason to have this conversation with you. It wouldn't make sense.

As far as experience and interaction goes, solipsism is absurd.

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 17 Feb 2013 18:14
by Ryan
Worldenterer1 wrote:No worries at all. I'm so easygoing that I would even go as far as saying that you probably couldn't offend me even if you tried! 8-) Oh, wait, is that another pseudo belief!? :o :) (Legit Smiley)

Ooooh, a challenge! hehe

Re: What are your religious views?

Posted: 18 Feb 2013 00:00
by Worldenterer1
Summerlander wrote:It's simple.

The real world might be subjectively experienced by living beings but two beings can confirm and agree upon the existence of its objects. The same is not true about dreams. As I have stated in a previous example, a human being will detect a mountain at a distance using his visual sense. A bat will detect it with sound waves. Although each creature experiences the mountain differently, both experience the mountain. The mountain has an objective existence.

If a person is going to claim that the moon ceases to objectively exist when they are not looking at it, then they must also ask themselves whether or not other people cease to exist when they are not looked at. This belief appears flawed and appears somewhat solipsistic.

I am also a bit confused about what is meant by pseudo-belief. What kind of jargon is this? You either believe in something or you don't. And then there is knowing, which requires you to be certain about something. Logically, if you are certain about something, you have strong evidence that justifies your certainty beyond all shadow of a doubt.

And then we also have beliefs that are justified. I have no way of knowing for sure that other people are conscious like me. However, I believe they are conscious based on the fact that their behaviour is more or less like mine. I intuit their minds and will address their behaviour accordingly. We develop our theories of mind all our lives and how other people respond to us seems to confirm our conclusion that they are conscious too. It would be impractical of me to subscribe to solypsism, because, if I did, I would have no reason to have this conversation with you. It wouldn't make sense.

As far as experience and interaction goes, solipsism is absurd.


Thanks Summerlander. Well put