Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 18 Nov 2014 19:32

Rumi's poetry will not be enough to sway Islamists just as Omar Khayyam's atheistic verses fail to persuade the pious in general to embrace secularism. Rumi's poetry also contradicts the tenets of Islam - from the Quran to the Hadith - where it is explicitly stated that Muslims must not befriend apostates and unbelievers. The Quran also promotes and ordains Jihad (holy war) against the infidel and glorifies martyrdom as one of the quickest ways to reach their hedonistic heaven. Members of the Islamic State, who wish to restore the old Caliphate, have every right to say that they follow their doctrine to the letter whilst reasonably arguing that moderate, cherry-picking Muslims who befriend the Western infidel are not real Muslims and face hellfire unless they completely embrace the totalitarianism of Islam. Hence the reason why thousands of Muslims from the West continue to travel to Iraq and Syria to aid what they believe to be the right side: the Mujahadeen, Allah's soldiers.

Either Islam completely reforms as Christianity did or people jettison this harmful ideology completely. Getting rid of theocracy would definitely be waking up and smelling the coffee.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

jasmine2
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby jasmine2 » 19 Nov 2014 02:03

I do not naively think that Rumi's poetry would ever be able to penetrate the stony hearts of any terrorists or other fanatical religious fundamentalists.

However, in the Sufi Islamic tradition, Rumi apparently encountered, and become attuned with, some unusually open-minded Muslim individuals who were able to explore their inner worlds deeply, and therein discovered a source of sacred, loving, universal creativity and inspiration, which was essentially missing in the surface, often rigid and intolerant, religious ideologies prevalent in much of Islamic society.

I think that the great popularity of Rumi's poetry in predominately Muslin countries, and in the U.S.A., as well as many other countries, provides a potential bridge for civilized communication between very different national cultures -- communication about the common needs and aspirations of millions of more moderate-minded people, who value peace and understanding more than endless war.

Rumi's potential cultural bridge is a subject which is never, ever discussed by America's news pundits, perhaps many of whom have never even heard of Rumi. And in the Middle East, many people who admire Rumi's poetry would probably be afraid to ever admit it.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religion and Politics: Iraqi Crisis

Postby Summerlander » 19 Nov 2014 15:18

jasmine2 wrote:However, in the Sufi Islamic tradition, Rumi apparently encountered, and become attuned with, some unusually open-minded Muslim individuals who were able to explore their inner worlds deeply, and therein discovered a source of sacred, loving, universal creativity and inspiration, which was essentially missing in the surface, often rigid and intolerant, religious ideologies prevalent in much of Islamic society.


The trouble is that Sufi ideology expresses it own identity which in the minds of ardent Islamists is simply false. If it doesn't directly come from what the prophet espoused it is automatically invalid. They have their idea of peace only amongst themselves as anyone who does not literally adhere to the Quran is simply an infidel unworthy of compassion. Allah already has a place for them: hellfire. And they will always trust Allah's judgement to be right. He is God, the all-knowing Creator of all things. :roll:

Science, reason, and secularism tend to be the usual candidates that refine civilisation and force religions to reform and conform to human values. I believe that a better brand of humanism and philanthropy can be discovered within us if we take our time to reflect and philosophise without the distraction of already existent primitive ideologies which claim to know what is best for us and coerce us into submission with bribery and threats. People should be encouraged to think for themselves and this is very applicable to children (with a little guidance but always emphasising certainties, uncertainties, and, above all, verified truisms). The golden rules should be discovered within (and taught without the aid of mystical BS), not from some ancient text written by sentimental barbarians.

jasmine2 wrote:I think that the great popularity of Rumi's poetry in predominately Muslin countries, and in the U.S.A., as well as many other countries, provides a potential bridge for civilized communication between very different national cultures -- communication about the common needs and aspirations of millions of more moderate-minded people, who value peace and understanding more than endless war.


People who value peace and understanding in this life (not just the purported next) are not the ones we should be worried about. They can preserve their cultures and traditions all they want as long as they are not harmful and as long as their way of living is not forced upon others. But there is no communication or dealing with people who behave psychotically. There is no agreement or understanding to be made between civilised people and barbarians like Boko Haram, al-Qaeda, or ISIS. Nothing to be conceded to these organisations or this type of mentality. Sometimes things are this black and white: we are right; they are wrong. :|

We don't want any bridges with these people because they simply do not value life in this world. They believe the next is what matters and this one is for God's work against perceived evil and insubordination. They believe they are the good guys who will be duly rewarded. The root of the problem is not what is coming from them as individuals for they have been brainwashed. The root of the problem is their religion, which convinces them to do what they do and has proved itself to also dissuade moderate and otherwise good people into committing atrocities. :(

Moderates are being persuaded by ISIS to take their faith more seriously. Many moderates are now learning more about the Quran and paying attention to verses they thought never existed. Meanwhile, moderate (lackadaisical) (pseudo-)Islam is making it harder for us to tackle the real problem (the doctrine of Islam) because they provide fertile ground in which zealots can thrive. I don't believe in the label "extremist": surely, being devout and obsessive in a good thing should not require derogatory terms - and yet, the media and politicians will have you believe that Islam is a good thing, a "religion of peace" founded by, they conveniently forget(!), a barbaric, and most likely schizophrenic, paedophile warrior. :x

They give so-called liberalists the opportunity to speak for (pseudo-)equality as they argue that individuals who hold these dangerous ideas should be respected because they simply believe in them and wish to express them. No, thank you! They invent terms like "Islamophobia" (hello! we should fear Islam when it proliferates suicide-bombing and promotes Taqiyya) and condemn hoodies and balaclavas whilst supporting niqabs - even though the latter has helped terrorists to escape and conceals identities. Even though mosques have harboured fugitives! It seems that religion is too often used as a get-out-of-jail-free trump and secularists do not stand a chance. The insidious creed that religion must be respected no matter what it prescribes is still very much prevalent. Without this moderate nonsense, we would have condemned Islam as something incompatible with human happiness (in the life that matters - the only one we are sure of) just like we combated Communism. (Islam is certainly worse than Trotskyism, that's for sure!) :twisted:

jasmine2 wrote:Rumi's potential cultural bridge is a subject which is never, ever discussed by America's news pundits, perhaps many of whom have never even heard of Rumi. And in the Middle East, many people who admire Rumi's poetry would probably be afraid to ever admit it.


A cultural bridge isn't necessarily a good thing especially when one side isn't ready to regress for the sake of meeting the other in the "middle." Here in the UK we are certainly suffering the effects of multiculturalism. I'm sorry, but, once we all realise that only science has the potential to establish more or less universal human values, and we acknowledged that certain traditions and memes must be abolished, will all of us meet in the middle (or the higher, enlightened utopia). The real "bridge" is a bridge founded on truth, not unsubstantiated tribal beliefs and customs based on fantasies, superstitions, and supernatural fears. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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