Lucid Dreaming and Religion

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby Summerlander » 13 Aug 2017 16:55

Morality and ethics precede religion. There is more deontological value to be found in the philosophy of Confucius or the literary works of Immanuel Kant than the Bible's garbled amorality. A C Grayling's secular humanism can also teach the pious a thing or two. I'm an atheist and I have no desire to commit crime. I also think it is more noble for people to be good because that's how they feel in their hearts than someone who only behaves because they seek to be rewarded in some imaginary heaven or wish to avoid hellish torment.

There is also a book called The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris which explicitly illustrates how morality might prosper without religion. In fact, crime in the most secular nations is quite low compared to theocracies and, as we've seen recently, it is the religious masses that have committed far more atrocities because they value their promised 'next life' more than this one (ironic seen as this one is the only one we can be sure of).

And why refuse atheism simply because the majority of us in the world are wrong and self-deluded? Agnostic proposes that the answer to the God hypothesis is a 50/50 scenario. It's not. The absence of divinity and intelligent design in nature is quite apparent. The gods of the Abrahamic religions certainly do not exist. They are too hypocritical, contradictory, paradoxical, jealous, sadistic and human to be real and compatible with this reality.

If there is a Creator, He certainly doesn't interfere in his creation---as Deism proffers. But even the deists have their work cut out in evidencing what they believe. The onus is on believers to substantiate their claims---which, so far, they have empirically failed to do so.

Hence, a healthy dose of scepticism, which leads to de facto atheism, is the logical route. Atheism is not dogmatic. I am quite prepared to undergo a paradigm shift should somebody prove to me that there is a god. Until then, my attitude towards such proposition remains the same as how I take the alleged existence of fairies: They are nowhere to be found ergo I see no reason to believe or to even entertain such notions.
Last edited by Summerlander on 13 Aug 2017 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby 24/7/365 » 13 Aug 2017 17:30

All legends have a basis for belief

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 14 Aug 2017 02:59

Summerlander wrote:They are too hypocritical, contradictory, paradoxical, jealous, sadistic and human to be real and compatible with this reality.


I absolutely agree. Not to mention,the ridiculous rules and restrictions in many religions can really prevent you from living/enjoying your life to the fullest. For instance,in Christianity,apparently just looking lustfully at someone means you've already committed adultery in your heart. sigh. :roll:

The day I fully rejected the religion that was forced down my throat(in my case,Christianity)was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life. Thankfully my dad was accepting of it. My mom however,didn't take it very well at first. but eventually she started silently accepting it and stopped forcing me to go to church when she realized I was avoiding/minimizing contact with her(she didn't live with us,thankfully)because of her poisonous attitude.

After my rejection of Christianity,I became a Deist for quite awhile,simply because it was the only explanation I had as to why we and this whole universe exists(and the sometimes "supernatural" things that happen around us). however,eventually I switched to full Atheism for the same reason that Summerlander already explained; lack of proof.

That being said however,I avoid talking about religion in real life. As a young teenager,I used to participate in heated religious debates on youtube (anonymously of course) and while it was kinda fun at first(the angry reactions I often got were entertaining) I eventually grew bored of it,realizing how futile it is and quit. I honestly can't remember if I ever actually successfully convinced someone in these debates. what usually happens is they go silent and stop debating.

I say,let them believe what they want,just focus on making your own life as happy and enjoyable as you can so long as you're not hurting/victimizing anyone. I respect religious people as long as they don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat.

Still,if someone were to seriously ask me about my position as an Atheist(No one has so far),I'd point them to these 2 awesome youtube channels:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheraminTrees/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup/videos

Some of my favorite videos from them (I haven't all their videos yet):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcw1YEtTQCw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 14 Aug 2017 04:07

LoneDreamer wrote:
Summerlander wrote:There is no reason to be a theist, a deist or a pantheist. Atheism---the disbelief in God's existence often due to absence of evidence in a precarious world of cause-and-effect---is the only tenable position to take.


I am not an atheist I am a bit agnostic and a nihilist. I will become atheist when all the religions are abolished. Not just one. But unfortunately most people aren't ready to. I don't know but I stumbled upon a nihilistic agnostic. He said that when religions are gone, morality will also perish slowly. Personally, I see morality as a set rules made by humans to keep society from going into chaos. But what do you think of the impact of atheism on morality? I'm not against atheism, I just want to know your views regarding morality.


On the subject of Religion and Morality,I suggest you watch this video from QualiaSoup,one of the youtube channels I linked to along with TheraminTrees. I just finished watching it today and its very insightful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ


Spoiler Alert:
As summarized by nearly the end of the video,the purpose of morality is "to ease the challenges of coexistence."
That has got to be the most insightful and logical conclusion about Morality I've ever heard,and I fully agree with it. and this is just part one of the video series. I'll go watch the next parts as I'm interested to know what else he's got on his mind.

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 14 Aug 2017 13:22

I don't know too much about abrahamic religions. I was talking about Hinduism. I have read that Hinduism was different sects earlier and there was rivalry between different sects. But even then it wasn't as bloody as western ones. Most of the conversions were through religious debates rather than violence. But there have been violence too. Well, casteism was a problem. But discrimination did exist everywhere at that time. But today's Hinduism is not too bad with casteism not a major factor. It's not as strict as other religions. There is some spirituality but it's not necessary. And there is no mention of permanent heavens. But there are some temporary heavens. Permanent heavens are for soldiers who die in wars for their kingdom. Also, most Hindus are taught that all gods are one. So, I don't see too much problem with it existing. This is my opinion though. Regarding atheism, I prefer to be a agnostic. Perhaps I am too childish to accept the truth. :mrgreen:
Last edited by LoneDreamer on 14 Aug 2017 13:27, edited 1 time in total.

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 14 Aug 2017 13:24

And thanks for linking the videos. I will watch it when I get the time. :)

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 14 Aug 2017 13:41

RedKryptonite wrote:As summarized by nearly the end of the video,the purpose of morality is "to ease the challenges of coexistence."
.

Yes, that's right. That's what I meant. But most of the adults I have seen are too short-sighted, greedy and selfish to think about coexistence. Even relatives can't be completely trusted. As of now, morality is really low in most areas. By low morality I mean selfishness. I must say kids and youth seem to be free from this. But it changes as they grow. I am no good either I just observe these things.

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LoneDreamer
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby LoneDreamer » 14 Aug 2017 13:51

Also, I'm enjoying the discussion. Most of the people around me don't think such things. So I don't get to discuss about it much.

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 14 Aug 2017 14:09

LoneDreamer wrote:Regarding atheism, I prefer to be a agnostic. Perhaps I am too childish to accept the truth. :mrgreen:


There is nothing wrong with this. Everyone should be free to come to their own conclusions. Although I claim to have become a full Atheist by now,I'd be lying if I said a small part of me doesn't wonder about the possibility of an afterlife and a higher power/God. (I'm not talking about the man-made religions we have now,but an unknown deity. again,the Deism in me. :lol: )

What is wrong however is discriminating someone for not agreeing with your beliefs. Parents for instance,who do not let their own children decide for themselves what they will believe. I still remember when my mom told me that she will only allow me to break away from our Christian beliefs if I spent (or better word; Waste) 10 years of my life in service to the church. Yeah-fucking-right! :roll: :x

Thankfully however,that's changed. She has silently accepted my beliefs and doesn't force me to go to church anymore,but I can tell that deep down,she will never sincerely accept my beliefs. Whatever,I couldn't give a rat's ass. See now why I despise people who try to shove their beliefs down others' throat? (I apologize if my swearing offends you)

Anyway,my motto is; Enjoy life to the fullest,so long as you don't victimize other people's well-being in doing so. We can never know for sure if there is an afterlife,but I believe abiding by this philosophy will at least minimize regrets when the time comes. 8-)

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and Religion

Postby RedKryptonite » 14 Aug 2017 14:30

LoneDreamer wrote:
RedKryptonite wrote:As summarized by nearly the end of the video,the purpose of morality is "to ease the challenges of coexistence."
.

Yes, that's right. That's what I meant. But most of the adults I have seen are too short-sighted, greedy and selfish to think about coexistence. Even relatives can't be completely trusted. As of now, morality is really low in most areas. By low morality I mean selfishness. I must say kids and youth seem to be free from this. But it changes as they grow. I am no good either I just observe these things.

Yeah,the world would indeed be a better place if people thought more about improving everyone's coexistence. I have to disagree with your comment about kids though. I used to get bullied mercilessly in school just because I was an introvert. I had to engage in several fist fights to protect myself. (Bullies often have no regard for their victim's well-being,but they do respect a heavy-hitter with the will to fight back.)
The whole "Violence is never the answer" bullshit was largely responsible for why I spent a large chunk of my childhood miserable until I finally stopped caring and fought back.

My life after I graduated high school has been the happiest stage of my life so far,although I'm not saying my life is perfect now. (Not even close)

The point though is,bad kids can be just as cruel as bad adults. Maybe you're experience is different.


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