Malala and Terrorism

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Summerlander
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jun 2016 00:13

I wouldn't be so fast in embracing James White, Pilgrim. He may really debate who he says he debates, unlike Caner, and he may be more cautious overall, but that doesn't make him right about his religious convictions. Consider Bill Flavell's eight reasons for why Christianity is equally false on www.churchandstate.org.:

'There is very little that we can prove in this world. However, we can look for evidence to support claims people make and, when there is sufficient supporting evidence and no contrary evidence, we can conclude a claim is probably true.

'However, it is easier to prove something is false – all you need is contradictory evidence. Here are my eight reasons why Christianity is false. There is abundant evidence to support each reason. I don’t have space here to give the evidence but if you are not aware of it, I can provide it.

'1. There is clear evidence that prayer does not work despite the Bible promising prayers will be answered.

'2. There is clear evidence that humans invent gods and there is no reason to believe the Jewish god is an exception.

'3. There is clear evidence that religions and gods are propagated through culture by infecting children, and no evidence that they are propagated by gods.

'4. There is clear evidence that religions evolve as human understanding of the world changes whilst a real, God-given religion, should never need to change.

'5. There is clear evidence that humans on this planet have unequal access to Christianity so, if Christianity is true, billions would be condemned to hell for no fault of their own. This contradicts the Christian notion that God is omni-benevolent.

'6. There is clear evidence that the Bible, supposedly inspired by God, is riddled with the type of errors that we would expect from Iron Age men but not from the creator of the universe.

'7. Christian theology is incoherent to the point of absurdity. God killing his son so he can forgive our future sin is like me breaking my son’s legs so I can forgive my neighbour in case she ever parks her car on my drive. It is quite ridiculous.

'8. There is clear evidence that the arguments presented for the existence of God are founded on logical fallacies – all of them. All that is left for Christians is faith and their feelings. We know that faith and feelings can be used to believe in any god at all – including non-existent gods. So faith and feelings are epistemologically worthless. And that is all Christians have.

'I rest my case.'
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jun 2016 04:27

I do not know much about James White. This is the first that I ever saw of him, because of your post. I am aware of him now since I checked on the Caner brothers related to Islam. I saw two videos. One I posted above, where White appears to have rightly held Caner accountable. Another YouTube video, he critiqued Caner's passionate sermon against Calvinists from Falwell's church. I do not know whether White is even a good person, but I agree with his Reformed theology, as I heard him argue. And, he is probably correct in calling out Caner's misstatements. The three hours or so of video, I am glad to have seen now.

Regarding your quote regading point 1--that 'prayer does nor work'.....God is under no obligation at all to answer, IF it is implied that the answer must be 'yes' or that God must agree to the request. I had a case of answered prayer that you and others would not believe, were I to tell. It happened when I was young, around the time that I had the two prophetic dreams that I cited on the thread about Lucid Dreamers and God. The two prophetic dreams plus the answered prayer were three 'lottery wins' in a row. My experience is not evidence for someone else, but it is significant to me.

The Bible has a coherent theme over hundreds of years. I have seen plenty prevailing wisdom against the Bible be overturned with archeological discoveries. Something might be true, whether or not it sounds good. I have reason to believe that God will judge all fairly, with greater accountability based upon what information one has. The greatest accountability is for evil religious leaders, whose actions have caused many to disbelieve.

I modified this post to improve it, since no more responses are posted as of this time.

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jun 2016 09:01

Summerlander wrote: All that is left for Christians is faith and their feelings. We know that faith and feelings can be used to believe in any god at all. '[/i]

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jun 2016 09:15

The quote that you give does not give regard for the huge span of time that the Scriptures cover regarding how God acted in history to corroborate His redemptive plans. It does not consider that one can reasonably evaluate whether a host of messianic prophecies have valid fulfillment in history. It gives no regard for the linguistically distinct testimonies from John, Luke, Paul, Peter, etc. Luke's distinct account, as in Acts, makes profound sense in relation to the writings of Paul, for example. Corroborating evidence on many levels is simply not blind faith and feelings. It is evidence than can be evaluated critically, even if one presumes it to be false in analyzing it.

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Summerlander
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jun 2016 11:58

Sir Francis Galton (Darwin's cousin) was one of the first ones to test the effectiveness of praying in double blind experiments. Him and others after him concluded it's ineffective. The huge spans of time you speak of regarding Scriptures is irrelevant when you have an omnipotent God who could have done more to make His revelation coherent and doubtless. The 'evidence' presented by religion is no evidence at all. But this is something we will always disagree with seen as I'm an atheist and you're a theist. But at least we agree on Malala and Caner ... 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jun 2016 21:42

I am sure that where Galton tested prayer, it was ineffective. The science I have no reason to doubt in such cases.

It is possible that I might become an atheist, while you become a theist. If we are the same, the conversation might be a little less interesting :mrgreen:

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Summerlander
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jun 2016 22:27

It would be even more interesting if you were secretly an atheistic devil's advocate. :mrgreen:

Praying should actually be considered a form of blasphemy. To pray is to assume that you know better than an omniscient god about how earthly affairs should be handled---as if God cannot work it out for Himself. Unless, of course, such god enjoys seeing its living creation beg and grovel before capriciously granting or denying their requests. 8-)

Josef Stalin used to do that ... :mrgreen:

'Praying is to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.'

~Ambrose Bierce
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 09 Jun 2016 23:32

A recurring theme all through the Bible is walking with God or being inclined towards the heart of God. Prayer rooted in such fellowship is much different than the prayer of 'give me what I want'.

No, I am not an atheist :) We get to have real fun.

I have given you examples before of unbelievers who change to believe. Here is an interesting story of someone going from belief to something less than belief, maybe.
http://m.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1701-1800/did-robert-robinson-wander-as-he-feared-11630313.html. He had intended to heckle Whitefield, but was somewhat changed. He wrote the hymn that includes the words "prone to wander", which might have foreshadowed his later direction.

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Summerlander
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jun 2016 19:28

I don't think I'll ever become a theist any time soon after reading something just now! A statue of Jesus in India had water mysteriously dripping from its toes and worshippers were drinking it. The source of the water was later found to be a clogged toilet nearby. If anything, this makes me feel more anti-theistic than ever. I feel sorry for them because their religious meme is what's causing them to behave this way and it's detrimental to their health. Religion is dangerous because it prevents people from thinking for themselves by promoting misology.

The link you provided is not working but I can tell you about a sense of wonder outside religion---and the epiphanies of the secular kind that come with the efforts to understand the world around us. I must say, after having read Unweaving The Rainbow, I couldn't agree more with Richard Dawkins. Reality is far more exciting and more people should look into science before deciding, prematurely, that it's just boring.

There have been times when I've experienced a profound exhiliration at the realisation that I finally understood something previously elusive; a kind of intellectual epiphany that does not come with ignorance and the lazy revelry in myths, superstition, and non-explanations.

To me, it is more enlightening to know that the process of ionisation is involved in thunder and lightning, rather than posit---without any reasonable basis whatsoever---that God's wrath (or something along these lines) is the cause. Long live science and reason! :-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: Malala and Terrorism

Postby Pilgrim » 10 Jun 2016 21:57

Okay, Summerlander, I understand that you want to help me and others. I like talking to you because you seem real, like Hagart. I do not like false and bad things that Christians say too, so I am glad that you call out things that are wrong.


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