This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 16 Dec 2017 02:30

I don't mind questions like that. I believe so far I've done a better job than most parents I know. I've got two boys and a girl. My eldest son is going to be fourteen in January. My daughter is eleven and my youngest is eight. They are very polite and keen to learn. I encourage them to read and to think for themselves. I try not to preach. :|

They've asked me if I believe in God and I merely gave them my opinion and the reasons why. I've even read George Orwell's Animal Farm and Richard Dawkins's The Magic of Reality to them. I've also taught them about evolution and why I appreciate Charles Darwin's countenance on the ten pound sterling. 8-)

I would never say to them, 'You must be an atheist!' But they've seen me express my dislike for religion when Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons or Muslims knock on my door. :roll:

They've also asked me what happens after death. I tell them it's nothing to fear because we have all been there for an 'eternity' prior to birth.

You have listed many reasons why people had children. Let me add another: sex. None of my kids were planned. They just happened due to my irresponsibility. Yep. :mrgreen:

Steve Jobs also makes a good point. Never blindly follow the vox populi. Sometimes it takes a maverick or a contrarian for progressive change. A lot of anti-natalists and pro-mortalists thought they were alone with their ultra-nihilistic thoughts. They were afraid to express their views for fear of being rejected by a majority that puts life on a pedestal ... until they heard of Benatar. :shock:

I wonder what Immanuel Kant would have thought of Benatar's moral philosophy since the former's deontology heavily relied on human autonomy and ethical living aiming for the summum bonum :!:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 16 Dec 2017 03:15

Summerlander wrote:You have listed many reasons why people had children. Let me add another: sex. None of my kids were planned. They just happened due to my irresponsibility. Yep. :mrgreen:

Steve Jobs also makes a good point. Never blindly follow the vox populi. Sometimes it takes a maverick or a contrarian for progressive change. A lot of anti-natalists and pro-mortalists thought they were alone with their ultra-nihilistic thoughts. They were afraid to express their views for fear of being rejected by a majority that puts life on a pedestal ... until they heard of Benatar. :shock:

I wonder what Immanuel Kant would have thought of Benatar's moral philosophy since the former's deontology heavily relied on human autonomy and ethical living aiming for the summum bonum :!:

In all my efforts to explain,I actually forgot the most common reason for childbirth,accidental pregnancy. Doh! :oops:

Just wondering,but are your children Agnostics? It seems to be that way. The most common reason for the continuation of religion is because parents and society forcefully shove their beliefs down on their children. Its very hard to overcome that early childhood brainwashing. (the main reason I was able to do it is because of the traumatic experiences in my childhood. I told you that I plan to post on that thread of yours on my journey to Atheism,but I've been putting it off for awhile. just wait a little longer,haha ;) )
I firmly believe that if people stopped doing this,religion would become an endangered species/practice. :lol:

Its really good to hear that you're teaching them to be critical thinkers. You're indeed way ahead of the average parent because of this alone,even though you didn't take parenting training (I presume?) :lol:

Speaking of the fear of social backlash/consequences,I posted a recent LD I had here:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20212&p=69909#p69909

Its very much related to the real life crisis I'm struggling with right now. I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts. :)

lucidé
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby lucidé » 16 Dec 2017 05:14

Here's my problem with kids these days: bratty toddlers. Parents these days don't know how to raise their kids, they let their toddlers run around and scream at inappropriate times in public. Sometimes they even let them bully other people. These brats and their parents today rule society more than Donald Trump rules over America. They can shoplift, murder, vandalize, and do all sorts of damage getting away with all of it, because the law enforcers think the kid is "innocent" of any wrongdoing. They also bring these brats to the very worst of places and disturb everyone when they do. I have major complaints about them taking them into my college classes and their screaming tantrums disturbing everyone when we pay $1,500 a semester to listen to the lectures and learn something, not to babysit someone else's bratty child.
One problem that there is in Utah, they need to STOP pushing people into having as many children as possible. This is not only increasing the amount of bratty children that there are in Utah, but because some of the handicapped people think they need to, they are having them as well. Mental disabilities unfortunately are genetic, and there is a high and in some people, guaranteed chance of having a disabled child for them. The problem with this, is because they have to take harsh medications or have other complications, the mentally disabled have a much shorter life expectancy than a normal person, which leads to another very complicated problem.
Most people won't adopt disabled children and they are usually left in foster care. And the ones who do, sometimes they end up abandoning them in the end.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 16 Dec 2017 06:57

lucidé wrote:Here's my problem with kids these days: bratty toddlers. Parents these days don't know how to raise their kids, they let their toddlers run around and scream at inappropriate times in public. Sometimes they even let them bully other people. These brats and their parents today rule society more than Donald Trump rules over America. They can shoplift, murder, vandalize, and do all sorts of damage getting away with all of it, because the law enforcers think the kid is "innocent" of any wrongdoing. They also bring these brats to the very worst of places and disturb everyone when they do. I have major complaints about them taking them into my college classes and their screaming tantrums disturbing everyone when we pay $1,500 a semester to listen to the lectures and learn something, not to babysit someone else's bratty child.
One problem that there is in Utah, they need to STOP pushing people into having as many children as possible. This is not only increasing the amount of bratty children that there are in Utah, but because some of the handicapped people think they need to, they are having them as well. Mental disabilities unfortunately are genetic, and there is a high and in some people, guaranteed chance of having a disabled child for them. The problem with this, is because they have to take harsh medications or have other complications, the mentally disabled have a much shorter life expectancy than a normal person, which leads to another very complicated problem.
Most people won't adopt disabled children and they are usually left in foster care. And the ones who do, sometimes they end up abandoning them in the end.

We live in a pretty screwed up world,don't we? Too bad none of our ideas here will likely ever become a reality :(
the most we can really do is focus on the quality of our own lives,and prevent it from being destroyed by societal programming.

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 16 Dec 2017 18:54

I can tell you that my eldest is definitely a staunch atheist. I never said he should be one but I suspect I played a major influential role. I wouldn't say it's my fault because I never brainwashed him; he merely asked questions and I answered with facts, honesty and common sense. What else could I do? It was inevitable. My youngest has already sussed out there is no Santa Claus and he tends to follow his brother's example. My daughter (who is very emotional) feels the need to believe in something---she's not sure about a loving Creator (agnostic like you said) but death terrifies her and hopes that the afterlife is real.

But she is still very young and it could be that the more she learns about the world the less agnostic she'll become. That's what happened to me anyway: I was schooled by nuns as a little boy and something happened which made me question Catholicism. I've always been inquisitive. Once I hit my teens I was an agnostic with a keen interest in science and philosophy. I came across great thinkers like Epicurus, Spinoza, Darwin and Voltaire. One day it suddenly hit me---'I don't believe in God!'

Whether the hard facts of life will drive my daughter towards de facto atheism remains to be seen. Human beings are subjectively private and quite unpredictable. She could marry a Saudi Arabian and convert to Islam. I can't stop her but I also wouldn't be able to help feeling a little disappointed.

I'll have to check out that link you posted. Also, no, I was never trained to be a parent. I just use common sense as I go along. I try to guide my children as best as I can. Me and my wife are reasonable people and we have a solid relationship. That helps. 8-)

Let me just append something relevant to anti-natalism here (Benatar's counterargument to my statement that future generations could reap felitous benefits from human progress over time):

A future utopian apogee is not worth the untold suffering of generations that precede it. The only way to put a stop to suffering as quickly as possible is to stop procreating. Nobody suffers if everyone is either dead or unborn.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 17 Dec 2017 07:46

Summerlander wrote:My daughter (who is very emotional) feels the need to believe in something---she's not sure about a loving Creator (agnostic like you said) but death terrifies her and hopes that the afterlife is real.

I suppose you can't really blame her. If I were to be perfectly honest,I honestly find the idea that our existence simply ends at death to be sad but comforting. You won't experience any more joy or pleasure,but you won't experience pain and suffering either,or anything else for matter. Still,we'll have to wait and see for ourselves. Even if there really is an afterlife,I'm very confident that none of the popular/well-known religions are going to be correct. Watch this beautifully animated video by TheraminTrees and QualiaSoup,a video they made to rip apart "Pascal's Wager":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU&t=1s

A future Utopian apogee is not worth the untold suffering of generations that precede it. The only way to put a stop to suffering as quickly as possible is to stop procreating. Nobody suffers if everyone is either dead or unborn.

Not to mention,the amount of necessary evil we have to resort to in order to prolong our existence until we reach that future Utopian. I just saw lucidé comment about switching scientific experimentation from animals to the human scumbags. I won't argue about the ethical implications of this,but even if we did this,the necessity of animal experimentation won't disappear entirely(though we can greatly minimize it since we'll get more accurate results from the human subjects)since there probably isn't enough of these kinds of people out there to use. Obviously we won't be able to use evil people we haven't caught. (You might get people to agree that Child molesters and psychopathic serial killers/torturers fully deserve to be used,but good luck trying to argue using petty criminals as subjects.)

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 18 Dec 2017 10:19

@Summerlander
Just another curious question,but are your kids and wife oneironauts as well? :D

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 20 Dec 2017 18:33

I don't think the kids have had lucid dreams---certainly night terrors and sleep hallucinations that were more intense than ordinary dreams. My wife has had at least one lucid dream that she told me about. But none of them practise it like I do. I'm Morpheus in the house. Lucid dreaming is my forte. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby RedKryptonite » 11 Jan 2018 17:50

Looks like I've learned another handy dandy term ;)

https://coolchildfreeguy.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/situational-antinatalism/

Situational Antinatalism. This is something pretty much any reasonable person (at least in my eyes) will agree with,even if they don't agree with the full philosophy of Antinatalism. After all,this is pretty much what this entire thread of mine is about. There are plenty of people out there,who should absolutely not become parents or shouldn't breed. It could be their:

- Living conditions (i.e poverty or living a really dangerous lifestyle)

- Personality (whether its lack of ethics,damage from a traumatic past,or just having a personality that is plain incompatible with the responsibilities of parenthood. i.e Being a naturally lazy/laid back person,etc.)

- Incompatible life goals/desires (Artists and Scientists who wants to focus all their time and energy on their pursuit. They are much more likely to benefit society if you don't pressure them into parenthood. Though,these people should consider sperm/egg donation. we need more brilliant people in this world after all,haha. This also goes for Hedonists who wish to pursue a life of pleasure despite the health risks.)

- Sheer lack of aptitude/competence (Being a slow and clumsy airhead,much like myself,embarrassing it is to admit :oops: )

- or just plain Bad Genetics. (that includes genetically inheritable diseases,both mental and physical)

There's no denying that there are people out there who would do not just themselves,but their unborn children and the entire world a favor by not bringing new life to this planet. You could even argue that the vast majority of people out there are not fit to be parents. Not without years of active self-improvement combined with the parenting training.

I'm honestly a bit torn between Situational Antinatalism and Full/General Antinatalism. I do however lean towards the latter,as I personally believe that people who are truly average in every aspect of their lives(Mediocre people with mediocre living conditions who are just sheep following the herd)should avoid having kids or just adopt(if they truly want parenthood). I'm not saying this out of elitism but because I don't think it is ever worth starting a life if they are destined/doomed to a life of mediocrity,because of the inevitable constant pain and suffering that comes with this thing we call "life."

Here's a nice little stick-drawing story that demonstrates this life of mediocrity I speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkp9UqVVHs

Even putting aside the bigger debate of whether or not its ever worth starting a life for the moment,I think most reasonable people will agree that if you know your offspring is doomed to a life of mediocrity or worse(because you as a couple live a life of mediocrity yourselves). its better to let them stay in the deep comfort of nothingness. :)

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Summerlander
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Re: This is why I support Genetic Engineering and Parenting training

Postby Summerlander » 12 Jan 2018 04:10

^^ I concur.

It is true that I have at times expressed some reservations about antinatalism when I experience some quirky optimism about the possibility of a future utopia, but I cannot bring myself to feel the same way regarding situational antinatalism.

Yes, spare the unborn of suffering. Leave them in the realm of oblivion. If they could glimpse the horrors of experience and send a message to antinatalists, I'm sure it would be, 'Thank you for not bringing us into existence!'
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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