Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

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HAGART
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby HAGART » 15 Apr 2013 05:27

Ignorance is bliss.

But you have to be 100% ignorant or else it doesn't work.

I feel unfortunate at times, being born a human, with a busy mind and always asking questions, constantly dealing with knowledge I just can't sweep under the rug of self-delusion. I will never be 100% blissfully ignorant!

I envy my pet dogs. They don't question their own mortality and have a peace of mind greater than any spiritual guru! (And the best thing about 'Dogism' is that there is no dogma!) :mrgreen:
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Summerlander » 15 Apr 2013 11:50

Yeah, lol!

Animals are kinda lucky as they don't have our psychological burdens. Blissfully ignorant!

Life is a monstrosity that we have the power to recognise. We are born and begin to suffer. We try our best to be happy but always worry. In the end we will lose everything including our own lives.

I see why many choose to believe in something more. A sort of delusive 'everything will be okay in the end'. This is why science has not managed to eradicate religious belief.

I have a feeling that a belief in the afterlife will persist for sometime.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Jack Reacher
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Jack Reacher » 16 Apr 2013 06:32

taniaaust1 wrote:
Jack Reacher wrote:Nice.

I think on of the key ideas for discussing this is to first discuss what it is to be a person, whether a person is purely physical or is also non physical, and the next step is to clearly discuss the difference between physical and non physical. Atm im about to head out but il post more later.


Starting from that point then.. I think a person is also non physical. ONE reason I think that is cause I can feel at times when someone is working on my chakras and aura extending outside of my physical body. This isnt just like a placebo as Ive had people work on my energy system from another country working on me distantly and I hadnt been told the time they were going to do so and I could feel exactly when they started doing it. (this has happened quite a few different occassions so not a fluke).

Another example of why I think we can be non physical. I once went to a demo of trance channelling.. amazing demo the ladies face actually shifted to a mans face of a different race then what she was when the spirit entered... and when the spirit said goodbye to us and her head flopped back down on her check. I saw the spirit come out of her body from her head like a wift of smoke.

Ive had many different experiences which have made me completely believe (no doubt) that we can be non physical.


Ok so say we have a non physical part to ourselves. Say I have a soul and a mind and a spirit or whatever floating in some space. How could it possibly interact with my physical body? It doesn't make sense, there is no way that it could interact or change a physical object that is bound by physical laws. To me its like say a rock has a soul or a non physical part, its not like its going to grow legs and walk around of its own free will, its bound by what its physical part.

Whats more, I don't understand why some people have a strong connection to their non physical side whereas a huge proportion to the rest of the human race lives in misery and probably never has the slightest idea of what we are talking about. At the end of the day its just a topic we talk about, its not really a reality for most people.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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HAGART
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby HAGART » 17 Apr 2013 00:06

Jack Reacher wrote:Say I have a soul and a mind and a spirit or whatever floating in some space. How could it possibly interact with my physical body? It doesn't make sense, there is no way that it could interact or change a physical object that is bound by physical laws.


Yea. If that were the case then why can't our non-physical being interact with OTHER physical matter. Just our bodies. It must be because the non-physical aspects of our minds is all in our heads and just ideas created by us... people with time on our hands and not preoccupied with living day by day trying to survive.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Peter
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Peter » 17 Apr 2013 01:16

Yea. If that were the case then why can't our non-physical being interact with OTHER physical matter


it sort of can, I get hit by a rock and my physical body is damaged and my feelings are hurt so the non-physical is able to be affected. its just the simple matter of out ability to get out of our own local area and interact - back to where it all starts

Where is the experience happening and what creates it
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby lucidinthe sky » 17 Apr 2013 01:59

Peter wrote:
Yea. If that were the case then why can't our non-physical being interact with OTHER physical matter


it sort of can, I get hit by a rock and my physical body is damaged and my feelings are hurt so the non-physical is able to be affected. its just the simple matter of out ability to get out of our own local area and interact - back to where it all starts

Where is the experience happening and what creates it


The physical exists in the physical, but our experience of the physical exists in the non-physical.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Summerlander » 17 Apr 2013 13:34

We are moving towards subjective experience, not necessarily a hypothetical non-physical plane of existence. Jack and Hagart are right in pointing out that if something is non-physical then it can't possibly interact with or be affected by the physical. For something to be affected by physical forces it has to be physical by default in order to be compatible.

Consciousness is still an unsolved puzzle but the evidence available seems to support the notion that it arises from matter epiphenomenally.

Have you guys heard the auditory continuity illusion. Check it out. It is very interesting and suggest a delay in information processing before it reaches consciousness. It starts off with intermittent beeping followed by a simultaneous broadband sound growing in volume. At some point you will erroneously perceive the beeping as though it's continuous.

It's important to follow science and avoid being swayed by strong illusions or jumping to conclusions. There is a good book called "The User Illusion" by Tor (can't remember his surname now). It propounds the idea that consciousness arises not from information in the brain, but rather, "exformation". It gets us to consider an unchartered territory between chaos and order where consciousness, as an illusory 'spotlight' arises.

Most of the information that we possess captured by our sensory organs is unconscious. There is so much information captured in the complexity thatin order for our organisms to survive in this world we must only focus at a limited and usually relevant portion in order to bring about a coherent and meaningful perspective.

The "I" that sits on top of all the unconscious complexity is swayed to focus at only small fractions of information whilst convinced of being the author of decision-making when even a concept such as free will has no place in our deterministic universe of cause and effect.

In essence, consciousness is riddled with lies and can be reduced to a strong illusion. The "I" doesn't really exist. To be conscious of something is to be aware of something that has passed. In this vein of thinking, if consciousness arises through exformation rather than information, if the less information it considers the better for its survival, then consciousness contradicts itself. It's a paradox and an illusion, not something of a spiritual essence in the way that esotericism conveys. The conscious self is a simulacrum of an entity.

We are not really conscious of much at all. When we get good at something through training, practice and repetition we are not conscious of much of the processing behind it at all. We just learn as we trust our complex unconscious to do all the work.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Peter » 17 Apr 2013 20:28

conscious is most likely the first and most basic step and we have not moved far beyond this yet, next up might be super - conscious and other states of real time awareness for lack of a better word. We are a bit like a child that has taken a colored pen and proudly made the first marks on a bit of paper and now feels his world is complete, nice state but a long long way to go :)
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Summerlander » 17 Apr 2013 21:35

I agree.

We are still wearing nappies. Then again we could die "tomorrow". An asteroid could come put a stop to everything.

What is interesting is that nothing about our past allows us to predict what we will evolve into. What is the next distinct form? How different will we be? What will happen to consciousness? The puzzle continues to grow. The mystery deepens.

We need to act fast..

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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taniaaust1
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby taniaaust1 » 18 Apr 2013 12:26

Jack Reacher wrote:Ok so say we have a non physical part to ourselves. Say I have a soul and a mind and a spirit or whatever floating in some space. How could it possibly interact with my physical body?


You interact with oxygen even thou you cant see it, and you need oxygen to survive.

Whats more, I don't understand why some people have a strong connection to their non physical side whereas a huge proportion to the rest of the human race lives in misery and probably never has the slightest idea of what we are talking about. At the end of the day its just a topic we talk about, its not really a reality for most people.


People thou can be easily taught to feel non physical aspects of themselves if they are interested enough to go and learn how to do that..it's a rare person who cant learn how to feel our non physical aspects if the one teaching the skills is a good teacher (I can give you places you can go to learn how to feel the non physical parts). One could say the same with LD.. why are some able to just have LDs spontanously? While most of the population dont even believe in it. Just because the majority of the population doesnt believe in something, it dont mean it cant be true. The ones who do it thou, know it can be done :D ..and hence they carry a different reality to the rest. Those at this site mostly know LD is a thing which we can do.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself


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