Can the people in my dreams think?

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.
ContraClessia
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Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby ContraClessia » 01 Sep 2016 07:38

I've been putting a lot of thought lately into whether or not the people that I interact with in my dreams have complex thought patterns.

After suggesting this theory to friends, I heard the expected "of course not, they're just people that your brain makes up; they're not real".
While I understand that this is true, I still believe that perhaps our brains have allotted each of these 'dream individuals' their own unique part of my own conscience, thus, in a sense, giving them life.

I began thinking about this possibility after a semi-lucid dream in which I realized that I was dreaming and then attempted to communicate so to someone around me. This dream person promptly denied my statement and attempted to reassure me that I was not dreaming.
This interaction is evidence that my conscience was struggling to figure out whether or not I was dreaming, and this struggle played out in my dream.

However!
Where do we draw the line for what is considered life/consciousness? The 'individual' that I interacted with in my dream wasn't myself, I experienced what I went through, I have memories of my thoughts and not others. The people around me in my dreams have an allotted consciousness different from that of my dream-self.

Could the human brain be powerful enough to endow a character with their own primitive form of sentience?

If anyone has any knowledge about in depth dream processes that might help verify/disprove this theory please share!
I am very excited by this theory and I hope you all are too.

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Dane
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby Dane » 08 Sep 2016 08:45

Well it is an interesting way to look at it ;)

Robert waggoner talks often of DC's who refused to accept all kinds of things.
Robert waggoner gateway to innerself.

Maybe that could help you on your way.
I returned from the abyss, as a married man. :D

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warren
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby warren » 02 Mar 2017 05:22

well i was told by someone that they had tried to convince dc that they were in a dream. most refused to believe, i think that is fairly upper level thought. the one that submitted and followed his instruction to rc, was baffled. this part gets iffy. he claims that the dc then transformed character and took to be a part of his brain. this mind character apprehended him and took control of him, explaining how he had reached a higher level of thought. at some point afterward the dream ended. i dunno how legit that last half is, but the former shows dc thought

lucidé
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby lucidé » 02 Mar 2017 17:30

In response to convincing my characters that they are in a dream, in some of my WILDs, I find what you might call non-lucid characters myself, which I try to help. Sometimes when I go around realistic looking versions of my town or other places such as Disneyland, while there are ground dream characters who cannot detect me, there are also flying dream characters who have dream abilities like I have. Most of them are aware they are in some sort of dream (from my perspective), and therefore are able to fly around and use their dream abilities to their full extent. There are some however who don't seem to quite get it, and still believe they are the demoted ground characters, sometimes trying to interact with them. My best example would be when I sometimes have flown into medical centers and have seen many flying characters inside of them. Some of them are still trying to tell the ground doctors (who cannot detect them) they need to be examined despite the fact they seem to be the glow of health, or they are walking non-lucidly around the halls, while others even try telling other various character really interesting things like, "The number you will need to get into my bank account is ? (I am not going to say what the number is, even if it is a lucid dream), make sure my money is safe." "You need to pay attention to me about how to handle my position in my job if you are going to run it properly (sometimes even yelling it)". My full responsibility is to explain to many of these characters that they are not in the real world, they are in a lucid dream. They really need to chill about thinking about the real world, because where they are currently, they need not worry about thinking about the real world. I show them that lucid dreaming is so much more fun when I teach them how to fly, and tell them the many places they could fly to that they couldn't before. Sure I am probably just be imagining their personalities, but being able to help even a character achieve lucidity is fun. Lucid dreaming will always be better than the real world.

In conclusion, yes my DCs can think because I program them each to think. It's just like in multimedia or video games when you program each individual character to have their own personality and their own thoughts. Depending on how high the designer's or dreamer's creative ability is depends on how many individual characters can be programmed out (if you ever watch any TV shows or movies, you know how creative their minds can be)
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby Summerlander » 03 Mar 2017 23:29

I think it's feasible that these dream characters represent conscious parts of us. Perhaps when we dream consciousness becomes 'fractured' and hence why we can be so irrational and not very aware when some of the characters seem more with it than us.

And, hypothetically, consciousness becomes more centralised in us when we are lucid. I like this theory. It has been said that in split brain patients the right hemisphere appears to exhibit far more awareness than a toddler. Robert Waggoner has even suggested that there is an awareness behind the lucid dream. It's one of his valid points.

I wonder if one day this will be explained at the level of the brain. We need more neuroscientists to pay attention to this intriguing oneiric phenomenon.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

24/7/365
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby 24/7/365 » 25 Apr 2017 15:19

You are in your dreams, can you think?

thebigdreamer20
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby thebigdreamer20 » 10 May 2017 00:08

I had a girl make an off-color joke in a dream once. I'm brand new to the forum and have no idea if I'm allowed to post it, I'll just play it safe.

But while the joke was extremely stupid in real life, it still made sense, and I didn't know the answer until she told me. And it wasn't a joke I heard in real life because no one would say that.

So yes, in a sense they have their own "thoughts" or at least our brains can give them information that our consciousness is un-aware of.

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Summerlander
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby Summerlander » 17 May 2017 01:20

There is definitely something there.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Oneiropagida
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby Oneiropagida » 17 May 2017 18:05

I don't believe they have a mind of their own.
Our brain is THAT powerful and able to make these convincing characters.
It is totally related to how you see the world and what you've experienced.
If someone was living in a cave his whole life and never talked to other people, he would definitely see extraordinary DCs.
Dream on....

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Summerlander
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Re: Can the people in my dreams think?

Postby Summerlander » 17 May 2017 22:09

Oneiropagida wrote:I don't believe they have a mind of their own.


Fair enough. For me it also remains a hypothesis. But the aforementioned scientific experiments about brain hemispheres and split-brain subjects do suggest that the one area of the brain we thought was completely unconscious did communicate and exhibited more awareness than a toddler. So is it possible that at least certain characters concocted by the subconscious could also exhibit the same ostensible awareness? And if so, how conscious are they? Should we regard them as we do another person in waking life?

It seems to make sense to me that we should at least extend the same courtesy from our theory of mind. Remember that in ordinary dreams we are often clueless about the environment whilst other characters appear to be 'more with it'. In lucid dreams, the table turns; all of a sudden you become a god and, at the moment when clarity is acquired, you often look around to find a world commonly populated by dream mannequins---characters drained of the élan vital they once possessed as lively animations. Did the lucid god hijack their knowing?

Is consciousness dispersed during ordinary dreams to subsequently become centralised in the dreamer when lucidity is attained? If this is true, I also wonder about the neuroscience behind it. I'd love to see how neuronic activity reflects this. It seems feasible to me that consciousness fluctuates between brain hemispheres during dreamful sleep.

Our brain is THAT powerful and able to make these convincing characters.


Whatever the case, this is undeniably true. The brain can make anything convincing. Have someone attempt to clasp your hands together whilst you pull them apart against his will. Keep manually warring in this manner for a couple of minutes and then ask your opponent to let go of your hands; have them as though you're holding something. It will seem as though you are holding an invisible balloon. Some area of your brain assumes the reason why you were avoiding clasping your hands is that some obstacle was in their way. The brain filled in a gap. It made something up instead of accepting the truth that it was nothing. And it does this all the time during our waking hours. In our sleep, it practically has a big void of no sensory input---an opportunity to create worlds from scratch and perceive them from a range of perspectives!

It is totally related to how you see the world and what you've experienced. If someone was living in a cave his whole life and never talked to other people, he would definitely see extraordinary DCs.


Of course he would. Even if those DCs came in the form of peculiar cave shadows or rock monsters, they would BE there. The cave dweller's water reflection would be sufficient to inspire the creation of dream clones.

Here's an interesting video about dream characters and lucid dreaming:

https://youtu.be/Uoh9Wh0V3Ts
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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