Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

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Samwise
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Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Samwise » 03 Mar 2017 15:06

Interesting study here I found recently, looking at hypnosis induced OBE's, I thought may be of interest to some. What makes this refreshing and novel is the use of hypnosis to induce OBE's in people, who were then interviewed to gain first-hand information on the experience as it occurs. Hypnosis it seems could be a valuable tool for both inducing and studying OBE's. Full paper can be downloaded via link below.

Study:

Tressoldi, P.E., Pederzoli, L., Caini, P., Ferrini, A. Melloni, S., Prati, E., Richeldi, D., Richeldi, F. & Trabucco, A. (2015) Hypnotically Induced Out-of-Body Experience. SAGE Open, 5, 4.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244015615919

Abstract

The possibility to induce real out-of-body experiences (OBEs) using hypnotic inductions, with the opportunity to interview participants during their experience, permits to investigate in depth the characteristics of different aspects of this particular state of consciousness from a first-person point of view. In this article, six selected participants report the description of another “body” we named “subtle body,” identified as an intermediate entity between the physical body (Pb) and their “Self” or “I-identity” that was named “psychic body,” and their relationships and characteristics. The “subtle body” was described as a sort of white silvered cloud surrounding the Pb, with a particular enlargement of its hands and feet that could move quickly like flying from one place to another even if less easily than the “psychic body,” and a vague sense of attrition was perceived when passing through walls. Similar to the “psychic body,” the “subtle” one too could move forward and backward in time even if they did not seem perceiving the sense of time. The “subtle body” was referred to be connected with the physical one by a sort of white brilliant link sometimes described like a silvered string more or less visible, whereas no visible links were identified between the “subtle body” and the “psychic” one. These reports were compared with similar descriptions deriving from the Vedanta philosophy and Theosophical tradition.

lucidé
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Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby lucidé » 03 Mar 2017 18:37

How many ghost sightings did they catch on their camera through this study? If it was real, then there is no question there should have been ghost sightings recorded on their cameras. If it was real, they should appear like ghosts, like this ghost appeared to Ted Nugent in this cartoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0UY4tHHb4o

While it has nothing to have to do with ghosts, it has to do with what I call dream spying (dream/lucid dream about a target or an event currently happening in reality, it doesn't matter whether you are dreaming in 1st person or in 3rd person), which I am sure your clients SHOULD have no problem with. How many open books, cards, newspapers, or notes did your clients happen to read during their experiences with 100% accuracy? What about when they flew into a movie? Did they happen to get the story of the movie 100% accurate? Did your clients happen to accidentally fly into a crime scene while it was happening? Perhaps try something simpler such as "Dream Meshing", but even things with dream meshing can get sticky. Did 2 clients happen to dream spy on the same target while dream meshing? Did they remember a key conversation password while meshing?
I've had extremely low probability events happen that have to do with both dream spying and meshing in many of my WILDs, so I am fairly familiar with many of the targets as mentioned above. This has to do with what is called the gambler's fallacy, because they believe you cannot be lucky or unlucky several times in a row, when in reality you can.

I don't really need hypnosis BTW to induce a WILD. I command myself to enter my dream body from awareness. As for the others, I am not sure how hypnotizing them into consciously inducing a lucid dream would work exactly. Maybe it might result in more successful lucid dreams for some or not as much for others, although I'd say whatever helps people succeed at a good WILD is worth giving it a try.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

Samwise
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016 15:40

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Samwise » 04 Mar 2017 17:54

Why this obsession with ghosts, and why assume they would be recorded in some form?? Is this not a wild assumption?

I myself have seen a ghost/apparition, and I consider myself sane. One summer evening a number of years ago at my family home, it was a nice warm summer evening and I was looking across the garden, I saw this little red light appear, it was the end of a cigarette being smoked, and from this, quite rapidly a fully formed male adult clothed human appeared out of thin air, looking directly at me, as he walked down the garden for a few seconds, before disappearing. I turned around, about to go into the house to tell my family, and then I saw what I assume what was the same figure (adult male) walking in the hallway, again looking at me as we went round the corner towards the downstairs toilet. This illusion was more than convincing enough for me to go and have a look to see if anyone was there (there wasn't). I did not experience any trace of fear, despite how vivid this experience was. So I have no doubt that there is definitely something to people's reports of ghosts encounters, but I think it much more likely they are an internally generated hallucination or projection of some kind than evidence of anything supernatural (bearing in mind our experience of reality is a brain projection based on electrochemical data...Occam's razor innit). So based on my own experience, I think the interesting question here is not whether ghosts exist, but what ghosts actually are. To just ignore the ghost phenomenon...despite it being a pretty universal human experience reported by all cultures going very far back in time...strikes me as scientifically lazy. I'm not arguing for the existence of ghosts as independent deceased/supernatural entities, but clearly there has got to be some kind of psychological mechanism at play here, and it would be good for science to investigate it, rather than simply ignore it because it falls out of the current scientific models (which as we all know are subject to constant revision and change).

I don't really need hypnosis BTW to induce a WILD. I command myself to enter my dream body from awareness. As for the others, I am not sure how hypnotizing them into consciously inducing a lucid dream would work exactly. Maybe it might result in more successful lucid dreams for some or not as much for others, although I'd say whatever helps people succeed at a good WILD is worth giving it a try.

I'm not sure this study touches on either ghosts or dream spying. Regarding WILD induction via hypnosis, I know some people have reported great success at inducing lucid dreams via self-hypnosis. But this isn't what is going on here. As we know, some people lump lucid dreams and OBE's together as essentially differing interpretations of the same experience (worth noting that there is variation in EEG readings linked to both lucid dreams and OBE's). While it is possible for lucid dreamers to signal to awake observers they are lucid in their dream, that is all they are capable of...i.e. they must by necessity be asleep during this experience. It sounds like this isn't a requirement for the OBE state of consciousness, at least described in this study, as people were awake and able to talk to researchers during the experience, suggesting a different state of consciousness is being experienced.

lucidé
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Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby lucidé » 04 Mar 2017 18:55

Ha! You seem to think I am awake during some of my WILDs, that is so funny! In the WILDs when I transfer my awareness to my dream body, I cannot feel anything that anyone does to me in real life. And if I leave the realistic looking room I am in during that WILD, I am unable to hear them either, so I become completely oblivious to anything that is going on in the real world. Also the one time I was in the EEG lab while they were measuring my brain waves, it appeared to them I had no awareness, so I don't think they could have communicated with me while I was accurately spying on the magazine in the other room if they really wanted to. There is absolutely no communicating with me when I end up having some of my WILDs, as my senses in real life are completely shut down.

One thing, I find your theory really difficult to believe. Because when I lucid dream, I cannot duplicate my awareness. I've tried to split my awareness into my clones, and have double vision before, but it is impossible. The very best I can do is create a copy of myself. If your clients were able to talk to the researchers, then clearly it is not a lucid dream, but some sort of hallucination. If your clients are able to accurately see things that are currently happening while awake, the paranormal term you might want to be looking for is known as "remote viewing", so I might want to clarify that one for you slightly. Remote viewing is supposedly an ability a person can talk through while in a hypnosis state, but at least from the cartoons I have seen. Turning into a ghost doesn't happen like in the cartoons until you are undead.
Last edited by lucidé on 05 Mar 2017 00:43, edited 1 time in total.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

Samwise
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016 15:40

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Samwise » 04 Mar 2017 20:33

Ha! You seem to think I am awake during some of my WILDs, that is so funny!

Sorry, but I never said any such thing. I know full well that WILD's occur when one is asleep! I simply stated that in the linked study, study participants who were experiencing a hypnosis induced OBE, must have been awake to some degree, as they were able to respond to researcher's questions via speaking. This would obviously be impossible when lucid dreaming, when one by necessity must be asleep (although lucid dreamers can signal to observers via eye movements, which is how lucid dreaming was scientifically validated). So this study is showing there must be a difference in the state of consciousness yielded by lucid dreaming and hypnosis induced OBE, as in the former experience you can only ever experience it while asleep, while this does not seem to apply to the latter experience. I'm not sure any claims are made about the OBE'rs in this study being able to perceive objective reality...they are simply being asked about phenomenological details of their experience as they experience it.

lucidé
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017 03:10

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby lucidé » 04 Mar 2017 21:55

Samwise wrote:Ha! You seem to think I am awake during some of my WILDs, that is so funny!

Sorry, but I never said any such thing. I know full well that WILD's occur when one is asleep! I simply stated that in the linked study, study participants who were experiencing a hypnosis induced OBE, must have been awake to some degree, as they were able to respond to researcher's questions via speaking. This would obviously be impossible when lucid dreaming, when one by necessity must be asleep (although lucid dreamers can signal to observers via eye movements, which is how lucid dreaming was scientifically validated). So this study is showing there must be a difference in the state of consciousness yielded by lucid dreaming and hypnosis induced OBE, as in the former experience you can only ever experience it while asleep, while this does not seem to apply to the latter experience. I'm not sure any claims are made about the OBE'rs in this study being able to perceive objective reality...they are simply being asked about phenomenological details of their experience as they experience it.


The only way the awareness in the real world could be transferred from point A to point B in a supernatural sense is if it somehow it were able to successfully be mind uploaded to another vessel's brain, in other words you would have to either turn into a ghost and upload your mind into the brain of the ghost or upload your awareness to an empty robot's memory. Uploading the awareness from one brain to another would lead to one brain being active, and the other not active (why not watch Avatar, to see how mind uploading works?) as the same coding cannot be active in 2 brains at the same time. With lucid dreaming or dreaming if you had access to supernatural abilities, it is much easier, as you never really have to leave the room at all. You could just use a super ability called dream spying (similar to remote viewing, except it is inside of a lucid dream/dream), and watch things anytime from 1st or 3rd person while still having access to your dream abilities.


Remote viewing is how they would provide part of the evidence for it, except that remote viewing if it exists can also technically be done in a lucid dream as well (called dream spying). Also if it were real, when they were responding to the viewer's questions, ghosts would be appearing on the cameras and be answering the interviewer's questions. I wonder why they haven't uploaded any ghosts answering researcher's questions to via speaking to Youtube yet, because if they did, this would certainly answer a lot of questions.

Also, I told you the superpower you are trying to describe is called "Remote Viewing", and while is quite similar to turning into a ghost, unlike the latter, the user doesn't die or fall into a coma. The user is hypnotized into viewing different places in the real world in 3rd person while they are still awake and is able to describe the places they are trying to see. While I am in doubt that's what's going on, it sounds way more that you are trying to get them to remote view than anything.

I am not sure if this is going to set you off the edge or not, but I used to induce WILDs while I was in class in high school (because of my sleep meds, I was too tired to stay awake), where I would consciously command my awareness into my dream body, and then command myself to fly away from my desk. More awake and alert in the lucid dream than I was in reality (pretty obvious how exhausted I looked from the face I saw on my clone. My clone tends to completely mimic the previous position I was in before inducing the WILD) I would listen to the teacher's lecture while I was flying, and watch everything that was going on in the classroom while I was in my lucid dream, including what the teacher wrote on the board, reading very carefully word by word what the teacher wrote. I also learned way more from the lecture in my lucid dreams than I ever did from them in real life. When class was almost over, I would fly myself back to my seat in my lucid dream, and slowly wake up in real life. When the teacher would ask me what the lecture was about, I'd tell the teacher what I learned about in my lucid dream, and while my ears could have listened to the lecture, it was obvious by sheer luck I ended up dream spying what was on the board (except I did this more than once in class). Being able to fully convince myself I am in a lucid dream each and every time I induce WILDs of any kind gives me so much courage, because I know that lucid dreaming is completely safe.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Summerlander » 08 Mar 2017 19:19

These experiences are undoubtedly all in one's mind and it is a non-sequitur to say 'I've seen a ghost and I consider myself sane.' :D

First of all, one doesn't have to be insane to experience hallucinations. Secondly, how many insane people have claimed sanity? :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Samwise
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016 15:40

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Samwise » 09 Apr 2017 21:45

The only way the awareness in the real world could be transferred from point A to point B in a supernatural sense is if it somehow it were able to successfully be mind uploaded to another vessel's brain, in other words you would have to either turn into a ghost and upload your mind into the brain of the ghost or upload your awareness to an empty robot's memory.


Not necessarily so. This only applies if one takes view that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain activity. Worth noting a number of scientists consider the possibility that consciousness may be a non-local phenomenon, so maybe not as corporeal or body dependant as you say. I'm not saying I adhere to this view, I'm just stating there are other views to this.

The US Military investigated the potentials of remote viewing in their Stargate Project. While it has since been terminated, some of the leading researchers involved state they have no doubts that ESP is real, and that useful, objective information was obtained via remote viewers in the programme that would have been extremely unlikely to be obtained otherwise.

Your high school WILD enhanced learning story does not set me off at all, that's really cool!! :)

These experiences are undoubtedly all in one's mind and it is a non-sequitur to say 'I've seen a ghost and I consider myself sane.'


Of course, our entire experience of life/the universe occurs within the confines of our mind/brain, ALL experiences occur there, and can only occur there. ;)

lucidé
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017 03:10

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby lucidé » 10 Apr 2017 00:14

Samwise wrote:
Your high school WILD enhanced learning story does not set me off at all, that's really cool!! :)


Yes, I might have had some episodes of dream spying during my classes, since I was able to read the board, when it should have been impossible. I've had other "dream spying" episodes before as well, such as when I ended up eye witnessing a criminal dumping a body in a dumpster at 1:15AM in a very specific alleyway. I was able to identify my character, even if he couldn't detect me (my characters cannot detect me if I am dream spying, as I am very obviously invisible and inaudible in some of my lucid dreams. I am also intangible, so the characters could easily just walk through me as if I didn't exist). Later identified him in a news story, who confessed he did exactly that at the same time I was watching him this when he got caught. I don't consider my dream spying episodes odd in the least even if some of the other users think I am strange. My dream spying is probably just like some lucky user flipping 100 heads or tails in a row, and while maybe some users have a hard time understanding that flipping 100 sides in a row is possible, we need to accept reality for what it is, and sometimes the laws of probability will work more in one person's favor than in other people's favor.
As far as dream spying being the same as turning into a ghost, even if dream spying was considered a paranormal ability rather than a chance-based ability (which in reality, dream spying is a chance-based ability), dream spying is a completely different ability from turning into a ghost. All dream spying requires is seeing and confirming something/a place/an object that is really happening at the same time, and with the "dream" term, it happens in a (lucid) dream.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

Samwise
Posts: 40
Joined: 09 Mar 2016 15:40

Re: Interesting study on hypnosis induced OBE's

Postby Samwise » 10 Apr 2017 00:32

My dream spying is probably just like some lucky user flipping 100 heads or tails in a row, and while maybe some users have a hard time understanding that flipping 100 sides in a row is possible, we need to accept reality for what it is, and sometimes the laws of probability will work more in one person's favor than in other people's favor.


I get your point here, but I'm not sure just subscribing such events to random chance...especially given how seemingly extremely unlikely one would experience such events objectively...is perhaps the best option here. I do see where you're coming from, but if you have experienced seemingly clear objective but otherwise impossible to observe things...not just once but on multiple occasions...perhaps it would be worthwhile to contemplate other possible explanatory mechanisms for how such things occur? Subscribing it purely to the workings of chance alone could be a bit of a cop out.
Last edited by Samwise on 10 Apr 2017 01:27, edited 1 time in total.


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