Summerlander wrote:I'm not denying Robert Bruce's experiences, nor Robert Monroe's. I'm more concerned about the way these men interpreted them. Monroe himself stated to novices that they must believe that consciousness exits the body when OOBEs occur and that this is proof of life after death. But this is mere speculation. The scientist can see that when something such as the thalamus is stimulated in the human brain, all sorts of illusions and alterations in proprioception can emerge.
I have also had experiences like Bruce's and Monroe's, but, wouldn't you say that perhaps you have taken their interpretations at face value rather than deriving your own from scientific fundament?
I dont take on others beliefs so their interpretations didnt really interest me much at all.. but rather how they describe their experience. I personally cant see how experiencing oneself out of body proves life after death unless you can also prove that you are really out of body by experiments or whatever which some do manage to do for themselves. Maybe Monroe has done that. I think he did do his own experiments on things didnt he? (Its a while since Ive read his stuff).
I believe consciousness can exist out of body due to things Ive experienced and thats the best answer to the experiences. How else would I have experienced my aunts death when I wasnt physically even there. Its the best explaination I have for various kinds of experiences Ive had. If ones conscious can leave the body during an OBE, there is no reason why it couldnt possibly do that on death. (Ive experienced my cats after they died while I was out of bed and fully awake.. no other way to explain that.. my daughter experienced it too.. so if it was halluncination we both were having them). Just too many have experiences which is easiest to explain by consciousness still being there after death.
I strongly disagree with Sylvan Muldoon's view on the subject, too. But I don't deny the author's experiences. He calls it "astral projection" and assumes the objective existence of an astral body and a matching plane of existence. But sometimes he is caught describing what appears to be nothing other than lucid dreaming:
[color=#400040][i]"...construct before yourself, mentally, a definite scene, which you must hold firmly in mind. Then, as you are falling asleep, hold this scene before you, and at the very last moment - before you fall asleep - consciously transfer yourself into the scene - in other words, step into the picture; and, if you have developed yourself to the requisite point, you will be enabled to carry over an unbroken consciousness into the dream state; and in this way you have perfect continuity of thought; there is no break in the consciousness; you step into the dream picture and go on dreaming consciously."
Yeah I'd call that definately an LD if it also takes on a life of its own, its his own thought construct.
- Sylvan Muldoon & Hereford Carrington; "The Projection of the Astral Body"
ou see, I happen to own some esoteric literature, too. When I first started my practice I hadn't even read anything about OOBEs and lucid dreams by any author. The out-of-body sensations were striking and they led me to look for answers and I started with Robert Monroe. I thought, "Could this be proof that spirits exist and there is an afterlife realm after all?" But the more I practised the more I came across inconsistencies
I'd love to hear more about this some time. Im interested in what you found inconsistant.
Stephen LaBerge was pragmatic and employed science to analyse the phenomenon. He showed that there is no need to call upon the belief in the paranormal in order to derive conclusions.
umm maybe I will check him out sometime. I are interested now to see how he did his studies? (Im assuming he did studies or something when you say he employed science). If there is logical explainations.. I would like to hear them.