False Awakening or OBE?

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jan 2015 21:52

I don't have to respect fallacies and couldn't care less about opinions. I value evidence. Facts. Also, if I was close-minded about this subject I wouldn't enquire.

You present your assertions to scientists and they'll be open to the afterlife possibility too! But then they will ask you for evidence, as they should, which you lack.

And so, the afterlife remains hypothetical, not theoretical. (Do find out the scientific definitions for the terms I have used as they differ from our day-to-day usage.)

Peace! :-D

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 09 Jan 2015 22:47

Yes, you have (if you respect yourself at least), because you are the one who calls my opinions fallacies, not me. So you name it and now; dan, dan....!! It's yours, enjoy it! I believe that it's queer for someone to trust logic so much and not have at least a belief not based of today's "facts". But, guess what! I respect it.. Yes, I understand that it needs a little bit more force of what you have used to, but it is not so hard. Try it.. And by telling you to respect my opinions, I mean to not overshadowing them by calling them fallacies, crap or anything like that, because you just want to look superior. There are other ways for that. You said to me that I am unable to lay my cards on the table. Well, if that are your cards, I am not willing to lay anything on the table, because it's already "dirty", as I am sure you noticed

Also, it seems you have closed your mind with rejecting the possibility of life after death. So how is this that you enquire? You do not say MAYBE, but NO. I say that I believe, but have not proof. And you have not proof either to declare that something like this doesn't exist scientifically. So??

But if you value facts, then value the fact that I want to believe in something either it has been proved or not, because it is one!

So, now let me "shoot"!
I had a recent LD that it came from a FA like the last ones and I really cannot understand why clarity or and flying became so hard. I RC and woke up (in my dream) and tried to gain clarity with the hands-trick you told me, but my hand was unable to slide with the other for no reason. They felt wet and I tried harder. After some seconds it worked, but not in the way I wanted too. I mean that at least I was lucid and could not have much control. Then I tried to float. That was really disappointing, I mean I could not even make it for an inch. It was like I was awake and the sky felt so strict and real. I don't even know how to explain it. Then, I felt awake, I RC and found out that I really was.

I) That was the third FA I described to you, because in the two other ones I lost lucidity so quickly and there is no much to tell. Three!! ..Again!!!! Does FA happens to you exactly that number of times? Is it regular or not?

II) Any tips for more clarity? It's seems that I am not progressing at all. I had more successful LDs before that. And what about flying? Do I need to force myself flying after falling off a cliff or something many times to actually happen?
Last edited by DesertExplorer on 10 Jan 2015 01:27, edited 1 time in total.
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jan 2015 01:10

The evidence I've pointed out is quite compelling in concluding that death is final. If someone comes along and says that they are sure consciousness survives physical death in some form, of course I will be open and curious about how this person arrived at such conclusion which contradicts all previous evidence that suggests otherwise. My current stance isn't really a belief or a dogma, it is merely a comprehensive view wrought from having followed the annals of scientific investigation. In a similar vein, if scientists discovered that there is no Higgs boson, they would have had to drop their standard model of particle physics, and, on top of this, conclude that something mighty strange is occurring with reality itself as it would appear that the universe is like a vehicle running without an engine. But they did find the Higgs. (Not exactly what they predicted but close enough, plus another array of quantum data to explore.)

My point is that scientists were quite prepared to throw their theories in the bin and start interpretation from scratch if that missing piece of the reality puzzle hadn't been found. My position is similar as regards the hereafter proposition. I am like a judge in a courtroom favouring the side that presents me with substantial evidence. If the other side, people like you, protest against the convincing evidence that has just swayed me, well, then they better have something even stronger, more compelling, and refuting of the opposition. And me, enquiring about what you assert is the same as a judge giving you the opportunity to present your case. It is me giving you my time and a chance to turn my paradigm.

You have not done this. What you offer is very tenuous, not just in courtrooms but in the scientific community too, as it isn't even a theoretical body of work ready for verification or falsification. All that you have is "belief without evidence." Imagine a convicted murderer saying to the judge, "In my defence, I believe I am innocent."

You find someone trusting logic quirky? Because I find someone implying that I should consider being illogical even quirkier if not outright bonkers. There are many things which can be imagined that we have no scientific evidence for and shouldn't be believed in the first place - like flying pigs, talking ducks, and any nonsense that any Joe can claim to exist without evidence.

Without logic, one loses the right to engage in intelligent discourse. Scientists have a duty to establish facts using evidence and reason. That's how you prove the validity of what you claim to the world. If you can't prove it to the world, it is as good as a fairytale. And don't pull the old "I don't have to prove it" card either. Something of the magnitude of what you claim is considerably valuable to many people if it can be confidently assured once and for all. You would be honoured, rich, and famous. It would be irresponsible of you as a member of society and humanity not to do a demonstration. Why wouldn't one console billions of people worldwide by proving to them that the conscious essence of their loved ones still exists?

Now, to address the regularity of false awakenings, as a practising lucid dreamer, I don't really have that many. I can have one or two in a row sometimes; rarely several in a row. Clarity can be achieved by amplifying the senses and being confident that one is indeed dreaming. You will find more tips and techniques in Michael Raduga's "The Phase - A Practical Guidebook." Good luck!

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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DesertExplorer
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 10 Jan 2015 01:44

Fair enough! If you set it like that, I agree. When you die, this is it. And don't misunderstand me, I don't want to make a paradox here. There are just two parts of the brain and I like to use them both. So, on the other hand (the fantasie part) I think that something can be transferred into something else, but not actually vanish!! And I don't talk about our bodies.

Thanks for the recommendation about the book. I look forward to read it!
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jan 2015 11:35

You will like the book because it is all about techniques which are really effective. It will help you to prolong your lucid dreams and lucidly re-enter the dream world after "foul" - what Raduga terms as an undesired exit from the phase state (lucid dreaming/out-of-body experiences/astral projection/false awakening/sleep paralysis etc.)

The term "phase state" is merely used to describe the hybrid brain state (gamma frequency) in which the aforementioned experiences take place. For example, the minute you experience strange sensations like vibrations whilst lying in bed is when you are "entering the phase." (Not to be mistaken with what Robert Monroe meant by "phasing.")

Raduga holds a pragmatic and materialistic stance but he welcomes everyone to use the guidebook. The book is mainly about technique so it doesn't matter about how you interpret the experiences you have in the phase state. In the book you will also find the author's experiences as well as those of his students. You will also find two of my experiences in there (Arlindo UK, page 111). :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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DesertExplorer
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Joined: 05 Oct 2014 20:44
Location: Xīlà

Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby DesertExplorer » 10 Jan 2015 13:13

Ha! :P You must be kidding!! How many years do you practice lucid dreaming, if I can ask?
Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.

~David Gerrold

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 10 Jan 2015 17:02

Not counting my various childhood experiences with false awakenings, lucid dreams, and out-of-body sensations; I'd say I've been practising and honing this ability for about seven years now.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Peter » 11 Jan 2015 03:17

For example, the minute you experience strange sensations like vibrations whilst lying in bed is when you are "entering the phase." (Not to be mistaken with what Robert Monroe meant by "phasing.")


What is the difference?
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Summerlander » 11 Jan 2015 04:00

It's important to make a distinction here.

Monroe spoke more along the lines of a transition from the physical to the metaphysical realm according to his belief and interpretation. For Monroe, the experiences were not dreams.

Raduga merely names a hybrid brain state (40 HZ) which indicates waking consciousness whilst dreaming - what he takes as the requirement for one to experience lucid dreams and the illusion of out-of-body travel.

But Raduga also stresses that being in an optimal phase state is very much unlike dreaming and the experience itself has more in common with being awake.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
Posts: 1947
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: False Awakening or OBE?

Postby Peter » 11 Jan 2015 04:04

Monroe spoke more along the lines of a transition from the physical to the metaphysical realm according to his belief and interpretation. For Monroe, the experiences were not dreams.


I read all of his books and a lot online and agree, I guess it was the best he could do at the time and fitted what he wanted to believe so makes sense and see a lot to be learnt about the states we get into in and what occurs in each one
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


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