Opinions on contradictory advice

Discuss lucid dreaming techniques including dream recall, MILD, WILD, meditation and other ways of attaining lucidity in dreams.
astrovineyard
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Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby astrovineyard » 01 Feb 2015 17:29

I used to be a much deep sleeper as a child, and had dozens of very frightening SP episodes then. In fact, SP was one in the same with a nightmare, since I never had one without the other. I thought all bad dreams were like that for everyone!

Anyway, fast forward past my teens, and my conquering of SP, and here I am a lighter sleeper who wishes to induce SP, on one level for nostalgia but also to experiment with LD.

I've tried on and off over the years but usually lose interest or persistence. The most I can accomplish are moments where my heart and breathing suddenly get much faster and my limbs go a bit numb, I might feel like I am sort of spinning or twisting in one direction. I keep thinking "what happens next?" and after it reaches a certain level it either subsides on its own, or I try to test it with a slight movement or twitch, which I do, meaning I wasn't paralyzed and it ends the spell.

What the heck is happening, if not SP, and if this is a vital stepping stone, how do I get to the next level?

When considering my tactics I try to do what I can to plan these events. For example, they often say that SP happens more often during naps and when you are sleep deprived. Well, I am horrible at napping, so the thought is do I need to pull an all-nighter (or two) to prime my body for a nap one strategically planned afternoon? But pulling all-nighters would impair my work, and it is hard to find a day off for a nap.

The OPPOSITE advice is along the lines of going to sleep EARLIER and setting the alarm 4 hours later, getting up then going back to sleep. Even this has not worked for me.

The problem is "should I DO something?" when laying in bed? I'm hoping these tricks would work on their own without any conscious nudging from myself (after all, ALL of my childhood SP took me by surprise every time). And it seems the more I try, the longer I am awake trying it, not succeeding, getting frustrated, and fearing it may cause another unpleasant bout of insomnia, roll over and drift off the usual way. Then I'll fall asleep, but bypass any awareness of SP or lucidity!

Any tips on which of the contradictory sleep schedule works best? Or if I need to DO something while in bed for either scenario?

This is why I am considering the aid of something like galantamine, but I'll ask about that in the appropriate thread.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby taniaaust1 » 06 Feb 2015 10:49

If you do experience Sleep paralyses, you still need to get out of experiencing a paralysed state or even possibily into a LD state and not all manage it from there. I dont understand why people aim for a sleep paralyses state and putting their attention on that rather then just aiming for a LD and putting attention onto this.

Attention on SP is more likely to send you into SP then straight into a LD in which you can move around. So its just possibly creating a barrier you will need to then get past. I dont understand why anyone wants to find themselves stuck in their body and not free to just move about in a LD. Why add SP in as another step one then has to get past?
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

Inedible
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby Inedible » 06 Feb 2015 11:02

Consciously experiencing sleep paralysis means that the body is asleep while the mind is awake. That is a useful condition because it can go in more than one direction. Astral projection, wake induced lucid dreams (WILD), and meditation are all options.

Generally speaking, it is better to actively do a technique than to wait for a spontaneous experience. Knowing about a type of experience and hoping it will come back tends to keep it from happening.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby taniaaust1 » 06 Feb 2015 11:30

Inedible wrote:Consciously experiencing sleep paralysis means that the body is asleep while the mind is awake. That is a useful condition because it can go in more than one direction. Astral projection, wake induced lucid dreams (WILD), and meditation are all options.


I didnt mean for my post to sound so harsh and yeah sleep paralyses often used for OBEs.

I dont know any meditations which aim for SP to be able to do the meditation What kind of meditation aims for that? (curious, I used to teach various forms of meditation).

Im not at all advocating waiting for a spontanous experience as doing nothing at all and having no focus isnt likely to get a person LD either. Im just trying to point out that focusing the actual goal can help create it rather then adding in a heap of things esp when this one can leave some stuck in the state and could create a habit of being stuck in it (for "some" thou of cause not all, it can cause an issue).
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

Inedible
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby Inedible » 07 Feb 2015 00:52

The Jhana condition in Theravada Buddhism involves having the body remain in the "desire realm" while the mind shifts to the world "of pure form". It is a sort of projection experience because the body is perceived as dropping away. It tends to be a very complete and convincing experience.

astrovineyard
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby astrovineyard » 07 Feb 2015 01:20

It is hard enough to get TO a LD via SP, let alone straight to an LD. I can't do either, but I know that the closest I've come to LD was on the perimeter of an SP experience. I guess because it is so obvious a unique experience that it holds more currency than just looking at your hand or trying to turn on a light switch in your dream to remember you are in one.

In my case even my mostly unsuccessful meditation and focusing on having an LD invariably leads to insomnia, so I don't think TRYING HARDER is going to solve the issue (or if it does, it makes the other worse). This is why I'd prefer the help of some external trigger to plop me into a scenario it would otherwise take me years to stumble upon serendipitously, and then remember how to proceed to an LD.

It is like preparing for an emergency, a fire or drowning incident. You go over the basics and maybe rehearse, but after a while you forget about it and then the emergency really happens years later you panic and forget what to do. I don't want that to be me every time I get SP (once a decade or so). I need to be pushed into the deep end of the pool now and then to remind me how to stay afloat.

Decent analogies?

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taniaaust1
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby taniaaust1 » 08 Feb 2015 08:42

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15831 This is post from someone I think it was only yesterday, which gives a good example of how his focus on sleep paralyses stuffed up what could of been a good LD experience for him. He didnt even realise he had woken up to a dream state due to he manifested a SP state due to his focus and previous experience around this so when he woke up (to a dream) he found himself "stuck".

This is a good example of what Ive been trying to say how SP can actually be hinderance to having LDs.
You create what you think and if you've been thinking a lot about being in this state and not being able to move, you are likely to find yourself that way.

On the few occassions Ive had SP, not once have I ever had a LD from them (thou I have no fear of SP). When I tried to move, I either remained stuck/paralized or when I finally got unstuck, my physical body then moved. From what Ive experienced with SP, I may not even be in the right state for a LD as another poster said, it is a state which many different states can flow from but one still has to get into those states.

"For myself" a SP state is more like a meditation state and I can be in a meditation state for 8-9 hours (ALL night at times) and not even get images or start dreaming. It leads me no-where (except possibility into an OBE state which I find different again to LD state).

Have you ever had a LD from a SP state? Some people do and those people obviously manage it fine but for others it just causes issues as the link I posted shows. It isnt necessarily an easy answer to LD. I do hope for you that it is thou but if you werent previously having LDs back when you used to get SP, you "may" not find it leading to anything. I wish you luck with it.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby astrovineyard » 08 Feb 2015 20:11

In my case I would not be averse to SP, the experience being interesting in and of itself. But it seems being unable to move (like trying to conjur up a monster that is genuinely scary) is not possible. It must intrinsically take you by surprise, and you must regard it as actually happening.

That said, 90% or so of my LDs have come from SP. It might not be the same as what you experience. You might call it a false awakening. You realize you are having a dream so try to move to wake up from it, but the paralysis is an ordeal happening to your actual body. So you are lucid to the first level of the dream, but not the second involving the paralysis.

The benign form of lucidity I've experienced did not involve any actual volition. You are aware that it is a dream, but either cannot influence the direction it takes from there, or it doesn't occur to you.

And so, in my experience, anything that would induce any or all of these states would be welcome for the opportunity to experiment they represent.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby taniaaust1 » 09 Feb 2015 00:17

astrovineyard wrote:
That said, 90% or so of my LDs have come from SP.


Sounds like you should have luck with this way of doing things then :)

It might not be the same as what you experience. You might call it a false awakening. You realize you are having a dream so try to move to wake up from it, but the paralysis is an ordeal happening to your actual body. So you are lucid to the first level of the dream, but not the second involving the paralysis.


There is a debate here at this forum of if sleep paralyses is or not experiencing the real physical body being paralysed. I myself believe it can, be while others believe the whole state is a dreaming one.

False awakenings are just that, when one awakes and thinks they have really woke up but they arent. Someone who is having a false awakening may or may not find themselves in sleep paralyses. Im well aware that sleep paralsyes doesnt always occur in the situation of a false awakening.

And so, in my experience, anything that would induce any or all of these states would be welcome for the opportunity to experiment they represent.


Some do enjoy any experience which occurs while others do get annoyed when they cant reach the experience they want to have, not all aim for just an "experience" some have quite specific goals. I myself are happy for any strange unusual experience or an interesting state.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Opinions on contradictory advice

Postby astrovineyard » 09 Feb 2015 01:54

taniaaust1 wrote:
astrovineyard wrote:
That said, 90% or so of my LDs have come from SP.


Sounds like you should have luck with this way of doing things then :)


Not quite... you see I no longer "suffer" from SP anymore! So my opportunity to experiment with LD is contingent upon my now non-existent experiences of SP. Any attempts to force it yields some mild but interesting results that are more often overshadowed by the negative (insomnia and resulting groggy lack of focus during day).

It might not be the same as what you experience. You might call it a false awakening. You realize you are having a dream so try to move to wake up from it, but the paralysis is an ordeal happening to your actual body. So you are lucid to the first level of the dream, but not the second involving the paralysis.


There is a debate here at this forum of if sleep paralyses is or not experiencing the real physical body being paralysed. I myself believe it can, be while others believe the whole state is a dreaming one.

False awakenings are just that, when one awakes and thinks they have really woke up but they arent. Someone who is having a false awakening may or may not find themselves in sleep paralyses. Im well aware that sleep paralsyes doesnt always occur in the situation of a false awakening.


It sounds like an interesting debate, but it is founded on any medical data? Even today on NPR I heard a segment on a woman who had narcolepsy AND cataplexy and had hypnogogic and hypnapompic hallucinations, paralysis and all.

It seems like there is a strong case that the actual paralysis is playing a part, since we ARE paralyzed, specifically in REM sleep when this is occurring. If it was NOT tied to our actual paralysis, then what is the mechanism that locks the dreamer into the state of helpless terror lasting seconds, minutes, or, according to some, hours? The suffocation also, if one's breathing is automatic then taking a huge gasp or speaking would not be possible, so dreaming such a scenario would be a coincidence. What evidence is there that this phenomenon works separately from the paralysis we experience? Their happening simultaneously would make it impossible to prove that one was not the cause of the other.

Also, sleeping prone vs. supine: if SP wasn't linked to one's actual paralysis, then why would its frequency, duration, intensity and fear level appear to be linked to something as simple as whether you sleep on your back or not, if in fact the hallucination of paralysis and one's actual body and how it is positioned is not factored into the experience at all?

And so, in my experience, anything that would induce any or all of these states would be welcome for the opportunity to experiment they represent.


Some do enjoy any experience which occurs while others do get annoyed when they cant reach the experience they want to have, not all aim for just an "experience" some have quite specific goals. I myself are happy for any strange unusual experience or an interesting state.
[/quote]

Then we are very alike! Except perhaps in our differences of what causes certain states, or our ability to experience them (and in what order) voluntarily or otherwise.

Since I can neither induce SP or an LD with any reliability, I'd welcome any technique or aid that would help EITHER happen. Not just because one might lead to another, but by welcoming either as a possibility I'd double my chances of something that could help. For example: "Drug X can cause SP but not LD" would be fine, since one is better then neither. However, after a first attempt with Galantamine and nothing happening, I wonder...


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