autopilot anyone?

How to control and prolong lucid dreams, increase the intensity, work with dream characters, and communicate with the subconscious.
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Summerlander
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Nov 2016 13:19

If you pay close attention, you will find that you are a void filled with the world. Look around you. The whole world sits on your neck where a head should be. It is just vision, hearing, tactility and the thoughts that arise. These things are not authored. They just are. If they weren't felt they wouldn't be sensations. In fact, they wouldn't be. You can break the dichotomy between observer and observed.

The observer you feel is not the self or ego identity---for this one is simply who you think you are and is, therefore, just another mental fiction. The real you is pure consciousness. It is that knowing. How this arises in the brain is still a mystery, of course.

But make no mistake about it---the self, as an eternal soul residing in the body, does not exist. What you experience is just another sense in consciousness. If you don't believe it, consider this example:

If you are watching a high-octane action-thriller on TV, you can almost forget yourself if you become absorbed by the plot. However, the sense of self is considerably hightened if a stranger glowers at you.

If the self, as a soul, were something real, you'd experience it all the time at the same degree of intensity. That's clearly not the case. Who you think you are, a mental construct, is what produces the illusion.

We talk about it at length here:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16533
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

alij8000
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby alij8000 » 26 Nov 2016 19:11

thats very intresting,and quite intriguing actually,thanks for that,lots.
but then,who is this dreamer of dreams that i've bumped into in my lucid dreams,that has no form,but takes the form of a voice if called out by me?

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Summerlander
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Summerlander » 26 Nov 2016 20:31

That's the thing! The dreamer of dreams is a dream itself and is, therefore, another mental fiction. The ego is just another mental fiction---a persistent bundle of thoughts. Thoughts are just impressions produced by neuronal interaction as the brain is bombarded by sensory input from the external world against our inherent drive for survival or, sometimes, will to self-destruction. We are a clockwork of physical forces pushing against the external source. How mental phenomena arise from this physical interaction is what's debatable. The puzzle is so intricate and complex that it calls upon science, mathematics and philosophy to solve it.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

alij8000
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby alij8000 » 27 Nov 2016 08:38

so thats all good and well to know,but has all this knowledge and conceptual phylosophy as i would see it,been any good to you?
i can't recall a single thing that is conceptual,such as a phylosiphy as to how things work (even tough i've read a thousand articles,and more) that has actualy advanced me spiritualy,the only things that have ever advanced me,are things, i do not know by intelect,but rather by intelegence,even tough i don't know if thats the right word,because quite frankly,i cannot express,or understand the source of what is actualy advancing me spiritualy even tough i know for sure that i've advanced,i can only see the results of this advance being expressed and thus conclude i've advanced,i cannot know the source or what it is that has advanced me,or what this advancement actualy means conceptualy or is intelectualy,
so can you shed some insight on that?
personaly i think taking a phylosiphical approach,or trying to express things intelectualy will benefit no one,neighter the writer nor the reader know what their actualy talking about,(no offense intended),their both idiots trying to tackle something that doesn't fit into words,phylosiphy,or conceptual or intelectual understanding,therefore i see this discussion as vain,even tough i find it VERY very intriguing,intresting,and my question finaly is,should we be even discussing spirituality at all knowing all this?
but then again,maybe im wrong and you can shed some light on this issue?

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Summerlander
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Summerlander » 27 Nov 2016 14:00

We're talking about a deep mystery here---the fact that it's possible for objects to become subjects in this universe; consciousness, the what it is like to be something.

Despite all my philosophising, I don't have the answers and it bugs me on some level---so me and you are on the same boat. But I feel I should be pragmatic based on the reality that's presented before me.

My version of spiritual progress would be accepting the way things are. The world is constantly changing against some of my wishes to see preservation; so I examine the contrast between those wishes and a universe that simply does not have my interests at heart. One day we will lose everything---loved ones, friends, family, possessions etc.---and this inevitability is what we have to come to terms with if we'd like to think of ourselves as being strong-minded.

For that kind of progress, the only one I know of, we must remember that we are nothing but a pristine cognition in which things can be said to exist. This awareness tolerates everything ab initio and is quite capable of maintaining a serene mind despite unpleasantness. An individual will never reach enlightenment if he refuses to accept that some things exist.

We are just part of a system of unfolding events---a universe that follows cause-and-effect. Therefore, there is no such thing as free will. A subject with a strong mind that accepts this---and embraces it---is already, in some sense, free. A strong mind doesn't wrap itself around hereafter fantasies for comfort either. It accepts the finality of all things including the self, and it knows that death is nothing to be feared whatever it may entail if not the likelihood of cessation.

So the goal isn't to have the most realistic lucid dreams, or to try to achive the highest spiritual planes of existence, or to seek profound epiphanies. The hallmark of a strong mind is to not seek anything. The strong mind is still while the whole world passes by. It does not chase because it doesn't feel the need to. It is happy wherever it goes.

As far as I know, Buddhism is the only religion that has hit the nail on the head regarding the nature of mind.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Pilgrim » 28 Nov 2016 08:56

Summerlander wrote:The hallmark of a strong mind is to not seek anything. The strong mind is still while the whole world passes by


I either disagree or do not understand. Identifying wants and desires and striving hard to attain through various intense effort is quite rewarding. Hunting and preparing a grand meal; a construction project to accomplish a grand renovation; intense study to learn; wooing a lovely mate; athletic training for prize; searching for a pearl of great price--these are a few examples striving with related rewards. The striving itself might be harsh, but often, in and of itself, seems to trigger satisfaction in the brain, merely with the expectation of the related reward.

No need to be still while the world passes by. Grab the bull by the horns!

alij8000
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby alij8000 » 28 Nov 2016 09:50

both approaches of eighter grabbing the bull by the horn,or retaining a strong mind that is still while the world passes by,seem like last resorts to me,there are limitations to both,i think true freedom lies beyond the both,one who is utterly intense at the same time as being utterly still,as described in ancient hindu culture,the god/godess shiva,is the incarnation of absolute intensity and at the same time absolute stillness.
so i disagree with both of you,i relize im going beyond logic here,but if logic is the stopping point for you,i understand,before experiancing the astral realm and the astral body,it was for me as well.
i have experianced all three states albeit for as long as 5 seconds each,
so i know how eighter of them feels,
stillness only i did not find to be true freedom,as its presense,unrewarding,altough reward loses its meaning in that state,its hard to explain why i don't prefer this state as at the time i didn't feel like anything actually mattered anymore,it was like it didn't matter wether i existed or not,as if i had alredy disappeared,it was not sustainble if you ask me,i feel like i would eventualy seek ''experiance''.

Absolute intensity such as sensations experianced during grabbing the bull by the horn (lol),again faces the problem of sustainability,this is why people do all kinds of crazy things,and when they reach the height of their experiances,they go further ahead,do even crazier stuff,but nontheless it isn't sustainble,and i did reach a state where i was absolutely high for 3 days in a row,without using drugs in fact,after some intense sadhanna for two months in a row,but as much as i'd like to have sustained it,it was not possible,because there was no stillness in me,i was moving,and i moved back down to earth eventualy.

Finaly,what gautama suggests,is to take the middle path,and in that regard,i would take it as a pointer that the only way to sustain yourself without being bound by anything,truely being free,is to be absolutely still and absolutely intense at the same time,now you might think these two things are opposites,but in my experiance,i assure you,they are not.
and this is the only thing i've experianced that i feel almost entirely positive, is sustainble,unfortunetly i got physically disturbed at the time and couldn't sustain it,had i not been,i would have stayed in that state for as long as no one poked me i belive.
i have tried to go back to that state which i don't know how i got there in the first place ever since,but have been unsucsessfull,every day i do all kinds of crazy 2 hour 3 hour intensive meditations in hopes that i would get back there sometimes even unconcious of what the hell im doing staying on the bed unmoving for two hours as if im a rock,later relizing its my inner urge to get back to that state that leads me to this...
also,i forgot to mention that the last state , still and intense at the same time,lasted for me for more than 5 minutes,which compared to the other two screams sustainble,and i actualy had to try and push very hard out of that state to confront a physical poke simply because i was scared for my life,i had to push out of some 5 layers each time by closing and opening my eyelieds,it took lots of effort but it went down very fast.

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Pilgrim
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Pilgrim » 28 Nov 2016 11:44

I believe that Summerlander and I discussed this on another thread. Had to give him a hard time again. :mrgreen: I will sign off from this thread so that you guys can discuss meditation and astral stuff.

alij8000
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Joined: 23 Nov 2016 06:51

Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby alij8000 » 28 Nov 2016 12:56

actualy we'd gotten way off topic so im signing off of it as well xD summerland really takes you for a ride doesn't he?

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Summerlander
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Re: autopilot anyone?

Postby Summerlander » 29 Nov 2016 01:45

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to do that. :D

Alij8000, you make valid points. Going for what you want, chasing your dreams, and having them fulfilled is indeed rewarding. By all means, do what you want! Never deny your likes and dislikes. They are conceptions which reside in your mind and should be embraced as well as understood.

In the other thread, I do prescribe moderation in Epicureanism and Buddhism. Feel free to chase your dreams, but if you don't catch them, in order to avoid disappointment, you need a strong mind---a mind that remains equanimous despite misfortune. It's a mind that says, 'I would love this and I'm going to do my best to get it but, if I fail, I'm okay---I'm not going to fall apart.'

Mindfulness can help you to achieve this state. And that is all I mean by a 'still mind'---a mind that is free to do what it wants but remains poised and collected no matter what. In fact, such mind isn't moved by desires as these are merely seen as phenomena within it. A desire will have no compelling power because such mind is already at peace with itself and everything as it is. Hence why it doesn't even feel the need to chase in the first place.

Let's put it this way: If you want chocolate and you can't help yourself but go to the shop to get it, you are not free. If, on the other hand, you're enlightened, and the thought of delicious chocolate pops up in your head, you will see it as an interesting urge arising in consciousness, but you won't identify with it; it isn't 'I want chocolate' as much as it is the 'notion of delicious chocolate' arising. And you'll be fine to not do anything about such urge (knowing that you'd also be fine if you followed through).

Mindfulness begets a mind that is already rewarded with freedom as opposed to a mind that can't help but follow its urges and moves from desire to desire---finding that reward is only fleeting---and apparently never happy as it wants more every time (knowing fully well that nothing lasts). :-)

And you were right to mention Gautama's Middle Way. I think that's important to bear in mind because to have a strong mind one must sustain it. So we do have to look after ourselves. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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