Won't this prove astral projection?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 11 Nov 2012 12:40

Snaggle wrote:Ryan some of us follow the evidence and not what we want to believe ;)


:lol:

You couldn't have put it better!
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Seachange
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Seachange » 12 Nov 2012 21:45

Well you could debate that one all day.
You could present ten people with the same "facts", and they will interpret them differently according to their background, culture, religious beliefs and previous reading etc. So I don't think you can seriously say you believe in fact, not what you want to believe. You want to believe in fact and you are not so open to believing in the unproved.
There is also the problem that most of what we are talking about is really hard to verify. If the tests devised don't work does that prove the experience didn't happen, or that we are not getting exactly what happens in the experience.
Interesting stuff. The only certain mind is a closed one, I say.

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 13 Nov 2012 20:28

I think you fumble your words, friend. Facts are not something to be believed. They are established truths and are therefore things which are known. If people, like scientists and inventors didn't agree on anything, nothing that works would ever be achieved. Take a look around and you will see that our technology is evidence for it. In fact look at your computer right now. Beliefs comefrom hypothesis and have no subtance against, say, the rocket science theory that was tested and proved to be practical in launching rockets into space. Belief, faith, or biased interpretations dont come into the equation when getting to the bottom of things.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Seachange
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Seachange » 13 Nov 2012 22:45

Yes, but if you read some quantum physics you will see that scientists often disagree, that there are always new hypotheses and new experiments to try to prove these with varying degrees of success, requiring new experiments to be designed. Knowledge and Reality is a whole field of study on its own. Science is not just about proving facts, but having the imagination to explore possibilities.
Anyhoo, if you look at my original response, the facts so far don't appear to prove that people leave their physical body during astral travel, but they feel as though they do. I think they're probably in an altered state and the mind projects what it wants or needs to see. I just don't think it matters much if people think they are leaving their body or not. It's more important what happens through the experience.

But that's just me. Part of my work involves therapy. My clients may hold certain beliefs and whether they are true or false is less important than whether they are helpful or unhelpful. If they are unhelpful I help them unravel them and replace them. If their beliefs are working for them, even if I don't think they are "true" (e.g. in the case of some religious beliefs) I leave it alone.
As an example - A child and his mother are involved in a car crash. The mother is killed and the distraught child spends the night in hospital. Next day the child is sitting up smiling and tells the doctor that he saw his mother standing at the end of his bed, smiling and telling him that she will always be there for him. This is a helpful belief that may comfort the child for years to come. Doctor doesn't believe that you can see dead people because it can't be proven, and tells the child he is hallucinating due to trauma and it will stop in a couple of days. Imposing his interpretation of the event on the child robs the child of the comfort of his own interpretation.
Anyway, we've strayed from the original poster's question, but that's the angle I was coming from. Sorry that was a long post.

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 14 Nov 2012 01:04

Don't worry about the long post. I can be pretty bad myself. Quantum physics happens to be an area of interest of mine, so much so that I will recommend "The Quantum Universe: Why everything that can happen does happen" by Brian Cox who has worked at CERN. The book will expose a lot of tripe that unfairly distorts what the quantum realm is all about by a lot of pseudoscientists out there. One is better off listening to the experts that deal directly with the area of research. Quantum mechanics are weird but that doesn't mean that something supernatural is going on. It's just that, for their calculations to make sense and predict an outcome, one has to assume that on a quantum level there is no such thing as possible and impossible, only probable and improbable come into it. Science does not yet have all the answers, but, let's not forget that quantum theory helped us to come up with the transistor, one of the greatest inventions of our time. The theory works even though there are many versions of it, some more hypothetical and others with more substance. The book mentions that the reader shouldn't be surprised if something like the Higgs boson was found - and surely enough they found it.

The belief in spirits and an afterlife is a different matter. I can't imagine why a materialist view would rob children or even adults of imagination. Many fantasy films and literature have been produced by creative and artistic individuals who grew up in materialism. In fact, I think telling children that an astral plane inhabited by ghosts exists can limit their scope and can discourage them from investigating or considering other worldviews if they live in the delusion that such esoteric views are an established truth. No hypothesis should be passed off as an established truth. This is why science has theories that are tested and lead to falsifiable predictions. Please understand that falsifiable does not mean false, but rather, in this context, that something can either be proved to be correct or incorrect via experimentation. Most of the time, because scientific theories are so substantial and involve calculations, their predictions turn out to be true.

To finalise, in the history of science there is not one shred of empirical evidence for the supernatural. They can find a particle that gives all other mass to different degrees and yet not a shred of evidence for a ghost inside the human body or a spiritual plane where the deceased supposedly go as discarnate being. The only evidence we have is that damage to the brain can destroy your mental faculties. I recommend that you take a look at Cristof Koch work, which is fairly recent, and the integration theory of consciousness. It won't be long before we solve this puzzle. To my satisfation, science has already demonstrated how, when we dream or hallucinate, the brain is making up realities in the absence or distortion of sensory input.

Lucid dreaming stands apart from the waking state and ordinary dreaming as a hybrid state in its own right. It bandwidth of brain activity is Gamma and the areas of the brain associated with self awareness and self-assessment light up. Check out the Planck Institute's findings on the lucid state. Very interesting and provides insights into the nature of consciousness.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 29 Jan 2013 05:52

Seachange wrote: The only certain mind is a closed one, I say.


I think that's the best thing I got out of this thread.

Skepticism is a good thing, but not if it blocks you from being open to things being different than you think, whatever your perfect reason for thinking it. It's really hard to learn anything new if you think you know everything already. Always having to be right about everything is often a sign of insecurity. Many people who are trying to "prove" everything with endless debate are really just trying to convince themselves. This is your dream character speaking.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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erichsa
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby erichsa » 29 Jan 2013 20:38

I agree with lucidinthe,and Seachange. To be open for me is: Yes-But :)

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 31 Jan 2013 10:28

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out. Anyway, you guys seem to be ignoring scientific evidence. In a way, anyone who favours one hypothesis because it sounds fantastic, and subscribes to it without any evidence whatsoever, has already given up on searching for answers and is being close-minded to the path that science points at.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Errant Soul
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Errant Soul » 31 Jan 2013 16:49

Hmm, I feel this discussion has fallen for the dualistic trick between whether 1 or 0 is superior or more complete (science vs spirituality, astral projection vs dream generation, etc)

If you listen to the "spiritual" people they are always referring to an inwards journey that reflects the world, which sounds much like what dream walking does. I think people got caught up on thinking that astral projection was an outwards journey, not an inwards journey that goes outwards.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 01 Feb 2013 05:16

Summerlander wrote:Beliefs comefrom hypothesis and have no subtance against, say, the rocket science theory that was tested and proved to be practical in launching rockets into space. Belief, faith, or biased interpretations dont come into the equation when getting to the bottom of things.


Why can't anyone have a discussion on this forum regarding things of non-scientifc nature without being subject to your constant critism and demeaning comments? We're not here to prove things to your satisfaction or to entertain your need for endless debate. I think everyone on this forum is aware that you don't agree with anything that someone can't provide scientific evidence for.

No one is allowed to have a conversation about God, afterlife, consciousness, sprituality or anything else you don't agree to without being subject to a 3 page diatribe about how "unscientific" it is.

A lot of us are searching for answers, and it would be nice be able to have a conversation that isn't constantly interrupted by the Scientific Method Police. I'm interested in your opinion but getting a bit tired of the lectures.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus


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