How to obe from a lucid dream?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby Summerlander » 29 Dec 2016 00:59

I do. :D

And I would encourage decent counterarguments without involving pseudoscience.

Or I'll experience the feeling of boredom ... :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

resonance
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby resonance » 30 Dec 2016 17:58

Pilgrim wrote:
Pederpan wrote:Summerlander, if only you would care to better inform yourself...
but you close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and shove your head in the sand. You are snug in your ill-founded opinions and identify with them. That is fine, I lovingly wish you a scientific christmas and a prosperous new year, (assuming that's what you want).


Peder, you should feel welcome to argue for your ideas. I hope you will come back. There really is no benefit to resorting to this kind of personal judgment of another's motives. It detracts from the content of what you want to share. We, as humans, are of similar condition. Besides, Summerlander has feelings too.


Now that's so unjust of you: Summerlander is quite the pepper himself, I think he went way more heavy and personal on Pederpan than Pederpan on him...
Last edited by resonance on 30 Dec 2016 19:48, edited 3 times in total.

resonance
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby resonance » 30 Dec 2016 18:12

Summerlander wrote:I do. :D

And I would encourage decent counterarguments without involving pseudoscience.

Or I'll experience the feeling of boredom ... :mrgreen:


The problem I see here is that using the mind, which is a particular and limited configuration of consciousness, to define or describe consciousness, which is bigger and prior to it, can never work. Only consciousness cognizes consciousness. I think Pederpan touched upon it too, but then he also went on with the convo so I don't know how much he meant it, maybe he wanted to answer to your objections anyway. But Summerlander you don't even seem to acknowledge the difference between mind and consciousness, so where do we even start? Science is completely useless to explain consciousness...

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Summerlander
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby Summerlander » 31 Dec 2016 01:53

I think you saw what you wanted to see when you read Pederpan's statements ... ;)

Just because science is struggling with the puzzle of consciousness doesn't give us the right to claim that it is something bigger or separate from physical matter. That's called 'jumping the gun' ... pseudoscience and specious argumentation certainly aren't going to cut it. :ugeek:

I authored a thread called 'The Shocking Truth' which is very much about making the distinction between mind and consciousness. But I would also argue that you're playing with semantics ...

Pristine cognition, or pure awareness (consciousness without content) can be described as the clearest mind. The mind in its default mode (noisy), however, can be thought of as convoluted consciousness filled with conceptions. If you don't have consciousness, there is no mind and vice versa.

But we can argue about epistemology if you like. You discredit any attempts by the mind to describe consciousness ... So, by your own admission, isn't the use of your mind to describe consciousness as 'bigger' and 'prior' a self-refutation? Think about it ... :)

But you may choose to pay no mind (attention) to Summerlander. (Two can play that game.) :D

Pederpan ... Is that you? :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby Pilgrim » 31 Dec 2016 07:06

The pantheistic perspective removes God from the equation, while retaining a form of spirituality. Since evil is illusory, the argument weakens from "conscience" to "consciousness." The moral argument carries more weight in so far as "conscience" appears to exist even contra to purely evolutionary forces of natural selection. (Deception, lies, rape, and a variety of selfish behaviors might contribute better to survival of a species than does moral behavior.)

I have come across a variety of New Age-like spiritualists on this forum who have discussed "consciousness" as something that science cannot account for. Such seemed the perspective of Robert Forsythe (mispelled?) and Samwise. Without having read whoever the "experts" are who are the source of this view, my opinion from what I have read, is that the position is overstated as to significance. It is not obvious to me why the physical brain could not generate the perception of consciousness. At the very least, the assumption that science must fully explain the natural process, else the spiritual explanation must be assumed as true, is fallacy. It is not that the argument has no weight. It is rather that the argument has less weight than the one for "conscience."

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Summerlander
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby Summerlander » 31 Dec 2016 14:18

Pilgrim wrote:The pantheistic perspective removes God from the equation, while retaining a form of spirituality.


If we are talking about Spinoza's pantheism, then God is certainly removed from the equation and spirituality is stripped of supernatural connotations and reduced to the awe that simple creatures like us feel when we contemplate the enormity of the cosmos.

Pilgrim wrote:Since evil is illusory, the argument weakens from "conscience" to "consciousness." The moral argument carries more weight in so far as "conscience" appears to exist even contra to purely evolutionary forces of natural selection. (Deception, lies, rape, and a variety of selfish behaviors might contribute better to survival of a species than does moral behavior.)


To me, evil is something very real but not in the sense of some preternatural force trying to influence the world. It is merely a word that describes the intentions and actions of brains which appear to be immorally hardwired and find pleasure in promoting suffering in the world. But this is not a condition born out of choice; it is the result of a physical configuration and what it is like to be such is the very consciousness that naturally 'illuminates' it.

About evolution: The Selfish Gene (misleading title) by Richard Dawkins paints a different picture. It actually behoves a species to be communal rather than individualistic and a sense of morality promotes survival in the long run. Immorality and selfish wrongdoing can only carry an individual so far because it begets resentment---and it isn't hard to imagine the chaos in a world populated solely by psychopaths.

Natural selection has, in fact, proliferated non-psychos (who are far more numerous), leaving the psychos to often pretend they are one of us in order to assimilate and grab whatever opportunity they can to pander to their ego. That's not to say, however, that the psychopathic brain has absolutely no utilitarian value.

In fact, the are situations where psychopaths fare better---and beget better outcomes---than their altruistic counterparts. Imagine that, in order to save five lives, you had to push a fat guy over a bridge as a means to stop an oncoming train. The psychopath wouldn't hesitate and would not be troubled by the fat guy's demise. (Plus five lives would be saved ...)

Conscience is the illusion. At the end of the day, our noggins house a multitude of competing urges that stem from an unconscious process until the 'winner' finally reaches awareness. (The latter has no power over decision-making; it is merely the neocortical regions 'witnessing' the impulses that have arisen.)

Pilgrim wrote:I have come across a variety of New Age-like spiritualists on this forum who have discussed "consciousness" as something that science cannot account for. Such seemed the perspective of Robert Forsythe (mispelled?) and Samwise. Without having read whoever the "experts" are who are the source of this view, my opinion from what I have read, is that the position is overstated as to significance.


'Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge; it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.'

~Charles Darwin

Pilgrim wrote:It is not obvious to me why the physical brain could not generate the perception of consciousness.


Those who say the physical can never carry such feature make the arrogant assumption that they've already sussed out physical matter, time and space to know that consciousness is impossible as a byproduct. The truth is: we only know 4% of the stuff the universe is made of; the brain is the most mathematically complex organ we know; we observe a universe where objects can be subjects and where subjectivity is most certainly lost at death when nearly two centuries of neuroscience show us that everything about the mind---every mental faculty can be expunged via cerebral damage or malfunction; consciousness itself can be temporarily lost (and once the living regain it, they are not aware of the passage of time nor its events while they were 'out'). 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Pilgrim
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby Pilgrim » 01 Jan 2017 08:14

Summerlander wrote:
Pilgrim wrote:The pantheistic perspective removes God from the equation, while retaining a form of spirituality.


If we are talking about Spinoza's pantheism, then God is certainly removed from the equation and spirituality is stripped of supernatural connotations and reduced to the awe that simple creatures like us feel when we contemplate the enormity of the cosmos.


Not Spinoza, since my description of pantheism included "spirituality." Spinoza denied the supernatural; whereas, I use the term to convey a common spirituality of the lucid dreaming community. Robert Waggoner (Gateway to Inner Self) articulated this view of the interconnectedness of the universe in a singular Oneness, Awareness, or Consciousness. Pan (all) theism (god) seems correctly descriptive, since it is commonly understood that the "theistic" concept of God is replaced with a more obscure energy or power. Think Star Wars, since you know of Yoda.

Since the universe is the body of this One energy, tapping into the power is desirable. The power is presumed to be benevolent. By this power, Waggoner described almost being able to know a winning lottery ticket number.

Several on the forum, from the past, such as Skippy, believe this worldview. It is highly spiritual, yet "religious" connection typically is denied. A feeling of enlightenment regarding fundamental truth behind all religions is common in this view.

What terminology is most descriptive and least pejorative?

Too bad Deschain (aka, the squid, the octopus, and the sentinel), also an atheist, no longer visits the forum. I think that he understood the weakness of relativism to account for morality.

Human conscience broadly bares witness, even without the biblical teaching, that none are righteous and that all have sinned and fall short.

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taniaaust1
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby taniaaust1 » 02 Jan 2017 11:38

Summerlander wrote:I think your depriving yourself of potentially good and useful information by rejecting input from unbelievers, Pederpan. I would advise you to reconsider ...

I don't believe anything immaterial leaves the physical body but I do believe in the illusion of out-of-body experiences. I've had them and I know how to induced them both from the waking state and DILDs.

Would you like me to continue or should I stop here and refrain from posting?


How can though someone who cant do something give useful info to teach another how to do that thing? All that does when people who havent actually experienced something before go giving advice to people want to learn that is is to often give wrong or confusing advice (we see this all the time here with the people who never ever had a LD dream giving advice on how to LD to ones wanting to learn to lucid dream and its often bad advice).

You are offering to teach illusionary OBEs, lucid dreams of OBEs rather then actual OBEs which it seems that the original poster was wishing to learn about.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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taniaaust1
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby taniaaust1 » 02 Jan 2017 11:48

Pederpan wrote:So what should i do then, to have a deep experience as possible?
Should i give commands like Buhlman?
Travel outwards through the 'rings' like Monroe.


There are different ways to cause OBE, just like there are different ways to cause a LD though there is some overlap with some techniques.

What you do in this state?
Perhaps asking aloud, 'what is most beneficial for me to explore now?' But that again refers to values. Who's to say what is beneficial? Perhaps i inevitably meet whatever clutter or fancy is in my head and there is no way around it.
Perhaps i should meet my biggest fears, just to discover it is not the end of being...


Both lucid dreaming and OBEs have benefits. I personally wouldnt say one is beneficial over the other, they are just useful for different things eg if you want to explore the subconscious mind and learn its language, you'd study dreams and LD.

If you are wanting to be able to go real places and see real things, talk to other astral projectors in the astral etc, you may want to learn OBE to try to achieve those goals.

My suggestion would be to anyone interested in both, to study Astral projection first as once you get into LD and into a habit of going into a dream state to do things in, it can be much harder to achieve real OBEs as the two states are quite similar. If you've had a few obviously real OBEs, you will never forget this even if later you become unable to OBE due to practicing LD.

Can you enter into oneness with everything?


That usually comes with high spiritual advancement. If you wish I can give you a powerful yogi meditation that if you practice daily for 2-3 years you may experience that oneness. Pm me if you are interested.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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taniaaust1
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Re: How to obe from a lucid dream?

Postby taniaaust1 » 02 Jan 2017 12:12

Pederpan wrote:I hope to receive some good advice and techniques, maybe even from people who are able to do this.

If you do not believe in obe, please refrain from posting in this tread.


I find myself LD'ing alot recently, but i only had one obe. When i notice my body is asleep, i try to sit up or roll out of body, BUT, my body is superheavy and i cant move, no way. Then i go on dreaming that i have a obe experience, were i can chose what to experience to a warying degree.

LD's come mostly towards morning, when i have already awoken, being present, rested and in glowing awareness.

I want to meet guides to tell me all sorts of cool stuff.
I know i am everything and nothing.

Thanks for your useful help and advice.


Yes you are far more likely to get LDs towards morning or at any time when you are sleepy.

You can fully awake for OBE, done from just a meditation state (sitting or laying down), you just need the right depth of relaxation and control over your energy and what its doing. To help keep LDs and OBE separate if you really want to do both, never do astral projection when you are tired at all or may fall asleep.

Sounds like you are getting to the stage where you could either go into a LD or an OBE. Thing is unless a person is at a certain point of development (energetic development), they will usually find themselves stuck unable to get out and if that then takes to long risk drifting into a LD. Practicing OBE techniques though over time can cause energetic blocks to clear to the point where one can start to astrally project.

Robert Bruce has techniques to help clear the energy body to help one get out but i really dont like those ones as they are very mild and very very slow way to develop the energy body for successful astral projections. I would suggest using the far stronger occultic techniques of some of the very advanced mystery school energy raising techniques to develop the energy body more, to help you to be able to far more easily get out such as in Denning and Phillips book called Astral Projection, the out-of-body experience. That book is a step by step instruction book on mastering using your own energy right up to being able to astrally project out. It teaches one how to send ones astral energy out to do like wandering clairvoyance first, the feel of the astral energy going in and out is a quite interesting feel.

I didnt do the wandering clairvoyance but ended up having OBES just from the energy raising exercises without even trying to.

Guides can be meet in deep meditation states. I had a very powerful experience with a guide (it actually scared me) using the instructions from Sanya Roman and Duane Packer's book "Opening to Channel, How to Connect with your guide" . I channelled a guide and taped it and listening to this after was scary (its not my voice but a mans and my background music sounds like I entered a timewarp). You dont have to go OBE or do LD to try to meet a spiritual guide.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself


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