The Hereafter

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 13 Jan 2017 22:02

Elysium Fields my arse ... :mrgreen:

I think eternal life would be torturous. Imagine waking up after your death to find that you will now be conscious for all time. Infinity awaits you.

This means that you are doomed to carry out every act that you can possibly imagine, an infinite number of times---you will also think the same thoughts in the same perennial fashion; novelty quickly wears out and an excruciating tedium will set in.

In such state, one would undoubtedly lose one's sanity and eventually wish for a swift death (a real one). Can you envisage the afterlife predicament?

You can lucid dreaming (whilst living) but ... stop dreaming. You know what I mean? :D

This is an anti-paranormal post. Death means death. The cessation of being. The ultimate nirvana. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Samwise
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Samwise » 02 Mar 2017 17:55

OK, I'll take the bait, just to play El Diablo's advocate! :D

Say, hypothetically, the afterlife is real. That when the body dies, consciousness in some form lives on. It kind of follows, that if there is such a thing as an afterlife, then we are part of some greater plan of some kind. With that in mind, one may expect these existential issues you bring up to be non-issues, as it follows there would be some greater purpose to life (and beyond), other than to have us dwell forever in a non-existent purgatory existence. I agree with you this does sound ridiculous, but I think partly this is due to your afterlife contemplation being so incredibly limited, dear Summerlander! :lol:

I think your view of time and its passage might be a bit naive here. There is increasing scientific contemplation of the possibility that time may be more a human concept than something truly objective. Experiencing a state of infinity or eternity is not the experience of being witness to the passage of infinite time...rather it is being in a state absent or outside of time. Such states have been reported by mystics and commonly among NDE'rs. So no, I don't see how such a state would be torturous, as there would be no passage of time by which to measure or contemplate your suffering. Your view also states that we would simply exist as a disembodied consciousness for all time. On what grounds do you make this conviction?

Your statement that we are doomed to carry every act possible forever is a wild baseless assumption, and it goes against the idea of there being a deeper plan or purpose, if indeed the afterlife is valid (it follows that the latter will follow the former). You also assume an entity would have memory recall of all these existences which would drive them mad. Some Buddhist monks claim to experience past life visions after many years (and hours) of deep meditation practice. So going on this, it doesn't seem likely one would have conscious access to all that information all the time.

I do get the point you are trying to make, and I'm not claiming to subscribe to a belief in the afterlife but I think you fall prey to your own subjective biases on what could be. If there is something more to this life, then I'm sure it will be far beyond our puny little minds to fully understand and comprehend it.

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 02 Mar 2017 22:04

I think I would prefer to live in my lucid dreams over any of that. Because my DCs don't seem to judge me. Too bad when I was given the choice to live in a lucid dream, I couldn't officially make that choice as I had to make the choice of placebo healing myself or I would disappear. I would really enjoy living in a lucid dream (indefinitely, I never said permanently) if I could officially be given the option, but unfortunately, science and physics make it impossible for it to be allowed. Lucid dreams are also unfortunately, not real, so anything else I ended up with probably would never end up as peaceful, quiet, and gentle on me as a lucid dream. Even if they aren't real, I have had some pretty interesting things happen in some of my lucid dream that usually wouldn't happen (because low probability allowed it to happen), like when I ended up flying into a crime scene one time at the same time it was happening.


In some low probability cases, it is possible (improbable but possible) to use "time travel" through a lucid dream to travel back into the past like a time machine and see some of the things that have been. I have done this a couple of times. One time I saw downtown in a lucid dream flooded and they had to build bridges (this really happened), while other times, I have seen characters in their youthful appearances, who even told me what things were like for them.
I think I might have scared off the conversation. Let's just watch this funny Spongebob cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBH8pmYIr0
Last edited by lucidé on 03 Mar 2017 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 03 Mar 2017 01:06

Samwise wrote:OK, I'll take the bait, just to play El Diablo's advocate! :D

Say, hypothetically, the afterlife is real. That when the body dies, consciousness in some form lives on. It kind of follows, that if there is such a thing as an afterlife, then we are part of some greater plan of some kind.


Keep dreaming ... or stop dreaming. :-D

With that in mind, one may expect these existential issues you bring up to be non-issues, as it follows there would be some greater purpose to life (and beyond), other than to have us dwell forever in a non-existent purgatory existence. I agree with you this does sound ridiculous, but I think partly this is due to your afterlife contemplation being so incredibly limited, dear Summerlander! :lol:


Face facts. Life is limited. Your imagination clearly isn't. But it's far divorced from realism. :lol:

I think your view of time and its passage might be a bit naive here. There is increasing scientific contemplation of the possibility that time may be more a human concept than something truly objective. Experiencing a state of infinity or eternity is not the experience of being witness to the passage of infinite time...


Sure ... you would know. You are so sure that you've lived forever. A kind of God complex really. :mrgreen:

rather it is being in a state absent or outside of time.


Like being dead? :mrgreen:

Such states have been reported by mystics and commonly among NDE'rs.


Didn't I refute this in the other thread? NDEs are living experiences. The brain is not dead when you have them. :D

So no, I don't see how such a state would be torturous, as there would be no passage of time by which to measure or contemplate your suffering.


No passage of time. This makes no sense whatsoever unless you are dead (no experience) and certainly not counting minutes. ;)

Your view also states that we would simply exist as a disembodied consciousness for all time. On what grounds do you make this conviction?


On what grounds do you make the conviction that reincarnation is true? Pseudoscientific? 8-)

Your statement that we are doomed to carry every act possible forever is a wild baseless assumption, and it goes against the idea of there being a deeper plan or purpose,


Of course it's against a deeper plan or purpose. What universe are you living in? Certainly not this one---the impersonal one that's indifferent to all lifeforms. :)


if indeed the afterlife is valid (it follows that the latter will follow the former).


Not if ... there is no afterlife. :twisted:

You also assume an entity would have memory recall of all these existences which would drive them mad. Some Buddhist monks claim to experience past life visions after many years (and hours) of deep meditation practice.


And you naively believe those claims without ever considering the possibility---and likelihood--- that they are either lying or deluded in interpreting their visions. :lol:

So going on this, it doesn't seem likely one would have conscious access to all that information all the time.


You don't have access to past lives because you were not your ancestors. They were different people who had their time. Your time is now and once you are gone you've had it. Why should you return? Why should the universe care about you? You are nothing but a conglomerate of mostly bacteria. You are nothing but carbon atoms mostly. That's all you are and once it decays, the information that creates your user illusion is destroyed. :ugeek:

I do get the point you are trying to make, and I'm not claiming to subscribe to a belief in the afterlife


You don't believe it because you have no evidence. You just want to believe it so badly. Desperate in a Freudian way ... :mrgreen:


but I think you fall prey to your own subjective biases on what could be.


Look who's talking ... :D

If there is something more to this life, then I'm sure it will be far beyond our puny little minds to fully understand and comprehend it.


Why should that be? :)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 03 Mar 2017 01:07

lucidé wrote:I think I would prefer to live in my lucid dreams over any of that. Because my DCs don't seem to judge me. Too bad when I was given the choice to live in a lucid dream, I couldn't officially make that choice as I had to make the choice of placebo healing myself or I would disappear. I would really enjoy living in a lucid dream (indefinitely, I never said permanently) if I could officially be given the option, but unfortunately, science and physics make it impossible for it to be allowed. Lucid dreams are also unfortunately, not real, so anything else I ended up with probably would never end up as peaceful, quiet, and gentle on me as a lucid dream. Even if they aren't real, I have had some pretty interesting things happen in some of my lucid dream that usually wouldn't happen (because low probability allowed it to happen), like when I ended up flying into a crime scene one time at the same time it was happening.


In some low probability cases, it is possible (improbable but possible) to use "time travel" through a lucid dream to travel back into the past like a time machine and see some of the things that have been. I have done this a couple of times. One time I saw downtown in a lucid dream flooded and they had to build bridges (this really happened), while other times, I have seen characters in their youthful appearances, who even told me what things were like for them.


I agree and resonate!!! :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 03 Mar 2017 01:11

One thing about the laws of low probability is that there is no limit on how many times it can happen. There was one time where I literally flipped 100 tails in a row (I am serious, I really did flip 100 tails once). That is evidence right there improbability is not impossibility, and you never know exactly how improbability specifically extremely low improbability will work when it happens. This is why even with what I call cold cases, I don't throw the case out, but I just wait around and see what happens with them. Just because improbability is not impossibility.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 03 Mar 2017 02:30

I believe you and applaud you on the fact that you are very much immune to the gambler's fallacy. Something like that happened in the Monte Carlo casino once and people lost a lot of money because they erroneously believed that a bout of reds was due after a succession of blacks on the roulette---as though nature cares about some temporal equipoise of possible results. The truth is, it doesn't. Like heads or tails, the following rows are just as likely as each other:

HTHTTHHHTHTHTTTHHT

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The universe doesn't care. The human mind cares and seeks patterns. That's the truth. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017 03:10

Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 03 Mar 2017 02:49

This would more than likely explain what is going on with the low probability in lucid dreams I am currently attempting to study. I have numerous low probability experiences in my own lucid dreams, and I have seen other users have experiences for myself. I wondered myself, "Is there truly a limit to how many times you can have a low probability lucid dream?" and that theory you have right there answers it right there, and might explain why others might not be able to have low probability happen in their lucid dreams, no matter how many times they attempt as well. I believe probability is a very interesting subject to study on for lucid dreams, as because it is something very rare that happens with dreaming or even lucid dreaming, it is undeniable proof that the laws of math are still at work in a lucid dream.
I just felt really embarrassed for a while, because I had too many low probability lucid dreams it was no longer funny, and some of these low probability lucid dreams had ridiculously low odds as well (I am not sure what the odds are of reading 2 pages in an open book or reading the board in the classroom during the lecture are in a lucid dream, 1 in 20,000? ). The gambler's fallacy says it cannot happen, but it is possible for things like that to happen. Because I have gotten so used to something low probability sometimes happening in my lucid dreams, I just treat it like everything else in a lucid dream, and some types of low probability I encounter end up making my lucid dream that much more interesting.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

Samwise
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Samwise » 03 Mar 2017 14:56

You misunderstand me Summerlander, and seem to have taken what I've said personally. I have no agenda here or axe to grind. I was simply offering some counter points to your points, which in the name of healthy debate I saw is a highly limited view of the potential of the afterlife riddled with subjective bias regarding time and how you think it must play out.

Keep dreaming ... or stop dreaming. :-D

Neuroscientists have observed there are a great many similarities between dreaming consciousness and one's waking consciousness...one's waking consciousness is, from the dream's perspective, a stable objective dream. So yes thanks I shall keep on dreaming, aka living. And no I'm no arguing that dreams are therefore real, or physical reality isn't real.

Face facts. Life is limited. Your imagination clearly isn't. But it's far divorced from realism. :lol:

I made it very clear I was speaking hypothetically when I made my points, and again you seem to take what I am saying personally! I'm not sure why there is the need to get all riled up over nothing.

Sure ... you would know. You are so sure that you've lived forever. A kind of God complex really. :mrgreen:

When did I make such a claim? And when I have ever mentioned God? Seems like you are projecting here.

Didn't I refute this in the other thread? NDEs are living experiences. The brain is not dead when you have them. :D

Well actually there are numerous reports of NDE's occurring in the medical literature when an EEG has flat lined, and while there is very likely residual consciousness in the brain, it should not be feasible for people to have highly lucid experiences of consciousness with no measurable EEG readings. Also, this is not really the point. If you listen to the reports of NDE'rs, and mystics, and shamans and other people who have experience with anomalous states of consciousness, reports of transcending time, or linear time at least appear to be a very common, if fundamental component of these experiences.

No passage of time. This makes no sense whatsoever unless you are dead (no experience) and certainly not counting minutes. ;)


This only makes no sense to you from an embodied human perspective (see previous point as well)...as has been stated, time is relative and there is scientific debate over what degree it is a human produced concept, rather than a truly objective physical law.

On what grounds do you make the conviction that reincarnation is true? Pseudoscientific? 8-)

When did I claim reincarnation was true? I was simply stating there could be other hypothetical afterlife possibilities to what you state, I'm simply calling you out on how limited your view is. Remember you started this discussion in the first place, not I!

Ignoring the subjective experiences of Buddhist monks mentioned (which is fair enough), the work of Ian Stevenson is relevant to this.

Great article for you to read, Summerlander..."Are We Skeptics Really Just Cynics?"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/ian-stevensone28099s-case-for-the-afterlife-are-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/

Of course it's against a deeper plan or purpose. What universe are you living in? Certainly not this one---the impersonal one that's indifferent to all lifeforms. :)

Huh? You are the one postulating about the afterlife. I simply stated, that if there is an afterlife...and yes that's a big if...then does it not follow by extension that there must be some deeper plan or purpose to life (and death). Do you not understand my point? So, following on from this...if there is an afterlife (and thus very likely some deeper life plan or purpose), then I feel it very unlikely that the afterlife will comprise one inhabiting a purgatory state of non-existence for all time.

Not if ... there is no afterlife. :twisted:

I think you mean there *probably* is no afterlife. You certainly do not and cannot know that with indisputable certainty, and to claim otherwise is arrogant.

And you naively believe those claims without ever considering the possibility---and likelihood--- that they are either lying or deluded in interpreting their visions. :lol:

Sure some Buddhist monks and others may be lying or deluded...but to immediately consider them all lying and deluded automatically because their views challenge your world view strikes me as arrogant and lazy.

You don't have access to past lives because you were not your ancestors.

People reporting past life experiences aren't experiencing the perspective of their ncestors as far as I know, so what is your point here?

Why should you return?

According to NDE'rs, OBE'rs, mystics and other, the point of returning to physical life is to learn and experience and grow in knowledge and understanding. Many of these people subscribe to a multidimensional view of the universe, and state the physical reality we inhabit allows consciousness at different levels of evolution to mix and learn from experience. Again, before I'm attacked for this, this is not my belief, I'm just providing an answer other people feel is a valid response to the question you posed.

Why should the universe care about you? You are nothing but a conglomerate of mostly bacteria. You are nothing but carbon atoms mostly. That's all you are and once it decays, the information that creates your user illusion is destroyed. :ugeek:


This is the materialist perspective. The idealist perspective states the mind/consciousness comes before matter, so it follows that it cannot be destroyed on the death of the body. Again, not my views, ut important to note others have different perspectives on such matters to you.

You don't believe it because you have no evidence. You just want to believe it so badly. Desperate in a Freudian way ... :mrgreen:

No, I really don't. I'm very happy and content to live a life and then be gone, it makes my/our time here all the more precious. Once more, you are projecting.

Why should that be? :)


If you hypothetically consider the possibility of an afterlife, then it follows you have to consider should such a thing exist, you likely know very little about it, or life's deeper purpose.

Again, likely I will be attacked in a personal manner for these points, but these are not necessarily my personal views by any stretch, I'm just presenting some counter points in the manner of friendly debate.

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 03 Mar 2017 18:12

No way, lucid dreaming is so much better than real life. Some of my friends were mentally disabled in the real world, and when they escaped into their lucid dreams, they were free from their disabilities while they were lucid dreaming. I was even lucky a few times to "mesh" my lucid dreams to see how beautiful they looked without their disabilities, and by talking to their characters while meshed, and especially when we had many low probability conversations with each other, it made it so much easier to understand them. Forget the real world, lucid dreaming is so much better. I may have responsibilities I must accomplish in the real world, but I still believe the dream world is so much better when there are dream characters I see that are young and don't have their disabilities on them. There are blind people during their DMT trips (dreams) who claim they are able to see colors, and they cannot do that in real life for obvious reasons.


There was a time in the EEG lab they couldn't detect many upper brain waves (it wasn't a lucid dream AKA REM, waking, or non-REM), but it didn't stop me from pulling off a WILD and using low probability luck to hit a target in the other room. While I am unsure how I pulled off the lucid dream during that time, I managed to do so anyways. There are probably some studies they still need to do on a person's subconscious and when people can and cannot do so as science isn't perfect with experiments just yet, but regardless, I know I was able to lucid dream during that time, and I also know I was able to lucid dream maybe during a medical procedure. The only evidence I carry of that is that I had a probability lucid dream and hit the target during the medical procedure (told them exactly what was going on in the video inside of me, TMI'ing all of the little marks and everything, that's enough to be considered hitting a target in a lucid dream), but aside from the low probability, one other thing I am able to do in some of my lucid dreams is keep track of real world time, which is necessary in some of them when all the time I have is maybe 10 or 15 minutes. It was fairly necessary in that one as well as the one in the EEG lab to keep track of the time passed, so I knew when I needed to wake myself from my lucid dream, as unlike many of my lucid dreams, I tend to have extreme difficulty waking up from these particular ones if I am not careful to keep track of the time, not because I cannot wake myself manually, but because if I don't, people get mad at me because I won't wake up from my lucid dream and they cannot wake me up, because in some of my lucid dreams, my awareness seems to be too deep inside a lucid dreams to just be woken up out of it by outside forces.

So Samwise, good question on your part, if I could have ultimately lived in a lucid dream during that time, why did I choose not to during that time? Even if I were not going to disappear, and I would have been allowed to live in that utopia I ended up seeing in my lucid dreams indefinitely with the characters who really cared about me, I still would have turned down the offer. Despite the fact I was horribly suffering in the real world, I wanted to return to the real world for several other reasons. One of my other family members was suffering horribly, and the other expected me to take them someplace fun in the future. I wanted to return to the real world, because I was needed in the real world. Despite the fact we'd all want to find and live in that lucid dream utopia, sometimes we are needed in real life, and therefore cannot just live in a lucid dream. There's a Utah saying that says "Wake up and do something more than dream about living in mansions. Doing good deeds is a pleasure!"
But answer me this: How could you live very peacefully in a lucid dream utopia or some other form of it, consciously knowing in real life, your family members were still suffering? Say you were even given the ability to remote view (like on that Simpsons episode) and you found out exactly what was going on with them, you probably would end up pretty sad in your lucid dreams, knowing you couldn't wake up out of them to help out your family members. It's only too bad you and your family cannot all end up living in one big lucid dream utopia, isn't it? Hooked up to machines, then there is no more suffering, you could all be in ignorant bliss and control things indefinitely, until you got tired of doing so. But then, if you were all together, then the fun would last much longer, just because you and the family members would be able to use your abilities to entertain each other, so it would probably take a good several centuries longer for you and the others to get bored of it, especially when more and more family members get hooked into the machine. I would take being hooked up with a bunch of my family members in a shared indefinite lucid dream over being reborn any day.

I personally believe every living thing has value, and our own universe has value, but then many in Utah believe all living things have infinite value. They even care about the mentally handicapped and the homeless (they have rehomed about 91% of them) and made it a 2nd degree felony for any form of animal abuse/cruelty (you could face 10-15 years in prison).
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g


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