The Hereafter

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
DreamerMan99
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby DreamerMan99 » 30 Apr 2017 14:31

Like beauty, worth is in the eye of the beholder. Objectively, nothing has worth. Worth is simply a human concept used to assign value for the simplification of our own existence. So any worth seen by the beholder is subjective, yes? Therefore, neither of you are right or wrong in your deeming of worth, rather just differing in opinion.

What does worth mean to both of you? Rather than saying a ham sandwich is worth more than a serial killer, tell me why you think anything subjectively has worth in the first place. What qualifies a serial killers worth, to you? What deems the worth of a ham sandwich?
Good luck,
Dream on.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 30 Apr 2017 19:19

lucidé wrote:I wouldn't be picking a person whom I know could hurt me, that would be ridiculous.


Now you see my point. :D

lucidé wrote:My father worked in a prison, and I will tell you, he said when he showed them "empathy", some of the very worst of them had a bit of soft personality many never really were able to see, because they never really tried showing empathy towards them.


They are quite capable of faking certain feelings. I don't trust them. :geek:

lucidé wrote:Most often when they are rescued, the animal will smother the human with their affection (like in that video), or they will show affection in their own way. This is often the animal in their own way thanking the human.


Isn't it more likely that animals have no concept of showing gratitude and it is humans who tend to misread their behaviour? What we construe as an animalistic display of affection---as biased by our theory of mind and inherent proclivity to humanise non-human things---is very likely to be the creature 'marking its territory' on us; especially when the animal perceives the human to be a source of food. The scent will help them find and identify us later. :)

Why does a cat rub its fur on your leg? It's not a thank you and it's not love. Such conceptions exist only in the human mind as far as we know. The cat is really saying to you: 'You're mine.' :mrgreen:

lucidé wrote:I personally think some animals are worth saving much more than some ungrateful $#@#, when you decide to risk your life to save their lives.


Now that you mention it, yes. I'd rather save a puppy than human monster. This decision is based on my consideration and discretion---not because someone inculcated the belief that puppies are more innocent. I couldn't care less about the mental life of both living beings. To me there is only one thing that matters: the puppy is less destructive. 8-)

lucidé wrote:I don't get why you would moderate a forum talking about ghosts when you don't believe in them.


Michael Raduga is scientifically-minded and pragmatic when it comes to the practice of altered states of consciousness. He does not believe in ghosts either and the OBE acronym simply describes the illusion of being out of one's body which can manifest in the lucid dream state.

Don't be misled by the name of the website---it is most likely intended as a gimmick to attract people and raise awareness about the mental phenomenon. Nothing leaves the body as the sleeper reaches a hybrid 'phase state' of the brain which combines waking consciousness and dreaming.

I recommend that you read his The Phase: A Practical Guidebook. It is all about different techniques and describes some experiences by the author and other lucid dreamers. Two of my best lucid dreams are recorded in his book. No ghosts or other paranormal nonsense found. 8-)

DreamerMan99 wrote:Like beauty, worth is in the eye of the beholder. Objectively, nothing has worth. Worth is simply a human concept used to assign value for the simplification of our own existence. So any worth seen by the beholder is subjective, yes? Therefore, neither of you are right or wrong in your deeming of worth, rather just differing in opinion.


Bingo. 8-)

I know that objectively, nothing really matters. The universe is merely one willy-nilly event since the Big Bang. It doesn't give a fuck about anything. We, as individuals, do. Things, however, just happen. I merely prefer the sandwich over the human killer because I have my selfish reasons: I love food---especially sandwiches as a quick snack---and it'll keep me alive; extreme psychopaths are a hazard and I don't want to have to look over my shoulder (a cannibal might disagree and prefer a cooked dead killer over a sarnie, who knows).

I favour certain atomic arrangements over others based on my own perception and perspective as a conscious being. That's it. But I am well aware of the fact that it is all atoms. Nothing more, nothing less. :ugeek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 30 Apr 2017 21:58

Summerlander wrote:
They are quite capable of faking certain feelings. I don't trust them. :geek:


Of course they are quite capable of doing this. However, if some of them were truly faking their feelings, they wouldn't be hugging their Christmas presents like my father said they were doing.

Isn't it more likely that animals have no concept of showing gratitude and it is humans who tend to misread their behaviour? What we construe as an animalistic display of affection---as biased by our theory of mind and inherent proclivity to humanise non-human things---is very likely to be the creature 'marking its territory' on us; especially when the animal perceives the human to be a source of food. The scent will help them find and identify us later. :)

I am not talking about when the animal decides to rub against you. There are other ways the animal can show gratitude besides this. Some cats will literally leap right into your arms, climb onto your shoulders, or even knead on your lap. There are many affectionate behaviors other animals have that which aren't related to marking you in the least.
My opinion is you are trying to deny animals have feelings, because you were cruel to them in the past (I know all about you helping your friend to drown dogs in the past), and you continue to inflict cruelty to them to this day without showing any remorse about how the animal feels about you hurting or killing them.

Why does a cat rub its fur on your leg? It's not a thank you and it's not love. Such conceptions exist only in the human mind as far as we know. The cat is really saying to you: 'You're mine.' :mrgreen:

If the cat is kneading and licking you on top of rubbing you, it's definitely affection. It's the cat's way of showing it's comfortable around you. My cats will run right up to me when I have a bad day, and jump right onto my lap. They'll knead on my lap and start licking me. So yes cats in their own way WILL show affection towards you. I watch Jackson Galaxy on TV, who is a certified cat psychologist (whatever psychological therapy he uses on even the most feral cats almost always works), and he even said it himself, that cats are capable of showing affection in their own way towards their owner.

Now that you mention it, yes. I'd rather save a puppy than human monster. This decision is based on my consideration and discretion---not because someone inculcated the belief that puppies are more innocent. I couldn't care less about the mental life of both living beings. To me there is only one thing that matters: the puppy is less destructive. 8-)


This is why I would risk my life to save an animal, because at least the puppy has something to live for.


Don't be misled by the name of the website---it is most likely intended as a gimmick to attract people and raise awareness about the mental phenomenon.


Well that seems fair, lucid dreaming about turning into Danny Phantom I guess might be fun for some people.

I wonder if there's a way to raise awareness for the practice of dream meshing as well? Dream meshing is where 2 or more well trained lucid dreamers program their lucid dreams to be as similar as possible, and even programming each other in their lucid dreams as well. Now this doesn't mean they are necessarily are all in the same lucid dream, merely they are all programming their lucid dreams to be similar, and what they are doing is trying to make as many symbols match from their lucid dreams as possible. What I find helps is if the lucid dreamers are capable of telling accurate real time while they are lucid dreaming, as I find dream meshing is oftentimes much more successful if the lucid dreamers can say about what time they were able to lucid dream about this which helps even more with the symbol matching (low probability isn't required for symbol matching with timing the minutes, it just requires a huge amount of skill on both lucid dreamer's parts). I will say there are also parts of dream meshing that do mess with the laws of chance as well, and this would have to do with if you decide to talk with each others' DCs during the dream meshing. But besides that, I don't understand why people avoid trying it altogether. Dream meshing is incredibly fun, and if you and another user manage to accomplish the task, it feels like such an accomplishment. I really think this lucid dream task needs to be tried out much more and given more credit, just because...I have done this many times with lucid dream friends before. I actually really miss pulling off dream meshing, as I haven't really tried using it officially in 3 years (I accidentally pulled off dream meshing a year ago).

That's it. But I am well aware of the fact that it is all atoms. Nothing more, nothing less. :ugeek:


I am sure some things are all more than just atoms. I believe there has to be some programming or something behind some of these atoms, because if they were all just atoms, then the atoms wouldn't move or interact with anything else. There has to be something that is making some of these atoms move or interact. I really believe in fact, some materials might very well be superior over others, this is what allows the life to be formed from some of them.

If people are worth less than @#$@ to you then, would you then hesitate to use the transformer on me, transform me into a pile of @#$@, and use it to fertilize your garden?
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 01 May 2017 02:26

lucidé wrote: if some of them were truly faking their feelings, they wouldn't be hugging their Christmas presents like my father said they were doing.


Why is it impossible for psychopaths to hug Christmas presents whilst thinking 'bah humbug'? And they could also be hugging the things they wanted without being in the Christmas spirit. :)

I don't think I've ever been cruel to psychopaths either as the reason why I deny them certain feelings---I'm just stating what I think. :mrgreen:

lucidé wrote:I am sure some things are all more than just atoms. I believe there has to be some programming or something behind some of these atoms, because if they were all just atoms, then the atoms wouldn't move or interact with anything else.


Atoms interact with other atoms precisely because they are atoms. If they didn't interact with anything they wouldn't be atoms, lucide! You do realise that science has established certain laws of physics based on observation and experimentation of how atoms behave. That's because atomic behaviour is predictable (most noticeably at molecular scales). It's predictable because matter is dictated upon by cause-and-effect.

Nothing needs to be controlling anything. No gods or deities interfering with the workings of this universe. If it were so, science would not be possible. There is no need to make the assumption that atoms have been programmed by an 'intelligent designer' rather than nature. You can even isolate electrons and successfully predict how they'll behave. 8-)

lucidé wrote:There has to be something that is making some of these atoms move or interact. I really believe in fact, some materials might very well be superior over others, this is what allows the life to be formed from some of them.


Nope. Mainly carbon atoms create organic molecular structures due to their complex shape. Heavy elements such as these inevitably stumbled upon RNA-like replicators which led to life. Life appears magical but it's an illusion. It's all clockwork. There is no magic behind it at all. It began as a simple chemical event and it grew more complicated. :ugeek:

lucidé wrote:If people are worth less than @#$@ to you then, would you then hesitate to use the transformer on me, transform me into a pile of @#$@, and use it to fertilize your garden?


I'm not an agrarian SOBT. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 01 May 2017 03:48

Summerlander wrote:
Atoms interact with other atoms precisely because they are atoms. If they didn't interact with anything they wouldn't be atoms, lucide! You do realise that science has established certain laws of physics based on observation and experimentation of how atoms behave. That's because atomic behaviour is predictable (most noticeably at molecular scales). It's predictable because matter is dictated upon by cause-and-effect.
You can even isolate electrons and successfully predict how they'll behave. 8-)

Sometimes but not always. If science is so perfect at predicting how things will behave, how come they cannot do this with ever living thing?


Nope. Mainly carbon atoms create organic molecular structures due to their complex shape. Heavy elements such as these inevitably stumbled upon RNA-like replicators which led to life. Life appears magical but it's an illusion. It's all clockwork. There is no magic behind it at all. It began as a simple chemical event and it grew more complicated. :ugeek:


Life doesn't seem to be an illusion in the least. To say the least, I'd like to say instead we are all inside a computer program.
I personally believe there is more to life than just the atoms. Personally I believe the atoms are much of like the binary code of our universe (a bunch of 0s and 1s). All programming is made up of binary numbers, which is the foundation of programming, however, the more complex forms of programming are much more difficult to figure out the deeper into programming you get. In programming, there are also If-else loops, which would also explain many animal and human behaviors, as if else loops have to do with making choices, which with some choices result in an endless loop. The binary code goes from binary to bits, to bytes, to kilobytes, to megabytes, and much higher than that. Could there be low probability events thanks to programming? Yes there can be, because programming has what is called a "Random Number Generator" that allows low probability events to happen.
There is no illusion at all, because when it comes to computer programming, you never truly know what you could end up with when it comes to it, even if programming is a bunch of binary numbers, so there are still truly many surprises out there when it comes to computer programming. As for what causes mutations, there are also glitches and viruses in computer programming as well, both of which can cause crashes and even permanent termination to certain parts of the program when it comes to computer programming. Archived programed can always be restored in some way, but if data is permanently deleted from a computer program, even if it's name is mentioned, it can NEVER be restored again. Computer programming is so powerful, if one had infinite knowledge specifically in this area, it is even possible they could even control a universe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFDZKaIT7ro

This is what I feel like my arguments with you are like. I really liked the quote, "I bought these shoes from a company on the Internet, because they don't test on animals."


I'm not an agrarian SOBT


I am really doubting you wouldn't use that transformer on me to transform me into something more useful, and I really wouldn't blame you if you did that. Maybe not @#$@. What about if you could rearrange my atoms into maybe, a bag full of money? I thought you might think about zapping me.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 01 May 2017 13:25

Illusions seem to be the real deal. No illusion seems to be an illusion otherwise they wouldn't be illusions. Human beings appear to possess an elan vitale but vitalists were proved wrong in their ghost in the machine assumptions. No ectoplasm or spirit substance is found inside organic lifeforms. Instead, it is all clockwork that we see when we perform surgeries and autopsies. Not even a single thing in the brain can be construed as a seat for the hypothetical soul; no self is to be found.

About science and challenging predictions ... Some systems are harder to predict than others, lucide. That's why we have Lyapunov functions in chaos theory. The brain, for instance, is a complex system whose activity can be hard to predict when it's constantly being affected and teased by its surroundings via sensory input. And being in the dark about certain matters does not warrant unfounded assumptions such as: There is a gap in knowledge, therefore, God/Creator must be found there!

Lack of knowledge is merely an impetus for more work and more discoveries to be made for the sensible and humble scientist. :idea:

I'm saying to you, nesgirl, that the universe is one big fart without purpose. There are laws of nature which can affect us in terrible ways. The universe was not designed by someone with us in mind. In fact, it is mostly deadly to us. It does not care. If there is any creator behind this universe, then the former had its own Darwinian development and the later is its mess (or fart). :mrgreen:

There is nothing, lucide. Nothing! No afterlife to be found and free will is an absurd concept in a world of cause-and-effect. Truth be told, nihilism is winning. But I'm comfortable with that. On a cosmic scale I know I'm pretty insignificant. I am nothing special---just a tiny speck that will be naturally snuffed out. This is my humility. I face facts and accept them. It is the pious who are egotistical in thinking they are some god's special creation; that they are something more and the product of divine purpose; they want to believe so bad that the universe was created with them in mind ... :idea:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 01 May 2017 17:18

Summerlander wrote:Illusions seem to be the real deal. No illusion seems to be an illusion otherwise they wouldn't be illusions. Human beings appear to possess an elan vitale but vitalists were proved wrong in their ghost in the machine assumptions. No ectoplasm or spirit substance is found inside organic lifeforms. Instead, it is all clockwork that we see when we perform surgeries and autopsies. Not even a single thing in the brain can be construed as a seat for the hypothetical soul; no self is to be found.


Even if we cannot find a self inside the brain, I know without a fact everyone and every animal has their own unique personality. There are no 2 personalities that have ever been exactly the same in history, which this would be very hard to explain

About science and challenging predictions ... Some systems are harder to predict than others, lucide. That's why we have Lyapunov functions in chaos theory. The brain, for instance, is a complex system whose activity can be hard to predict when it's constantly being affected and teased by its surroundings via sensory input. And being in the dark about certain matters does not warrant unfounded assumptions such as: There is a gap in knowledge, therefore, God/Creator must be found there!


I am sure the brain is a form of programming just like a computer is as well, which every brain is programmed differently just like with robots. This is more than likely the reason why brains are hard to figure out, as until we figure out how each brain is programmed, we will never know.


I'm saying to you, nesgirl, that the universe is one big fart without purpose. There are laws of nature which can affect us in terrible ways. The universe was not designed by someone with us in mind. In fact, it is mostly deadly to us. It does not care. If there is any creator behind this universe, then the former had its own Darwinian development and the later is its mess (or fart). :mrgreen:

Personally, I believe we do have purpose in this universe, as does all life in all of the other multiverses. I believe all universes have a form of DNA which will be completely changed right before a universe dies, and once that universe dies, then from that dead universe, there are new ones born from that universe's DNA. Every life born in our universe I believe will slowly affect the programming of a new universe one day, and even if our atoms only affect maybe 1 small letter of the birth of the next universe, it is still going to affect how the next universe ends up being born. It might even affect how much better life evolves and how much faster technology evolves in the birth of the next universe, because from what I heard, with the birth of each new universe, intelligence can also evolve more and more.


There is nothing, lucide. Nothing!

There are things out there, you probably just don't realize it. My opinion is our universe might very well be a mutated universe from another universe, which is why things are so corrupt in our universe. I personally believe universes have been born, dying and been giving birth to new universes again for an infinite amount of time, with people and animals on them. In other words, universes will be born over and over again infinitely, and time itself will never really end. We are a part of this universe's DNA and all of us could somehow affect the coding of this universe's DNA to prepare it for the making of a brand new universe someday, which is why all of us are infinitely valuable. All of us have something to give. Imagine if it was because of all of our actions put together if in another universe someday, life evolved much faster, and technology happened within about 10,000 years rather than 100,000,000 years time. This is why our actions could be very important and could influence what happens when the next universe is born. Even if this weren't the case, I still believe all humans and animals have infinite value anyways and always will believe this.

If there was seriously no purpose to life, then suicide would probably be encouraged more as a solution to problems than discouraged so why not think about that. For example, a person is sick of their constant boring routine. Well since there is no purpose to life and they are worth less than !@#@ anyway, they could just use suicide as an escape from that routine anyways, because according to you, the universe wouldn't care anyways. A person's family member just died, and they cannot cope with the grief. All they'd have to do is kill themselves, and there would be no more emotion and grief (20% of real suicide causes are caused by grief). The universe wouldn't even care according to you if they did that. According to you, there is nothing, you are nothing, so why not encourage them to know nothing along with it?
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 01 May 2017 19:51

Personalities and a sense of self/identity is not the same as an immortal soul---especially when they can be affected or destroyed through brain damage and malfunction. :)

Also, many of the traits we believe to be idiosyncrasies have been genetically inherited from our parents and forebears. Individuality isn't hard to explain either: Each and every one of us holds a unique perspective in reality space and our experiences are unique on an individual basis. Even close twins who can finish each others sentences can be individually original because their lives will still differ however slightly. :geek:

Brains differ as much as individual experiences. To be Hitler, you'd have to live at a time when many things hadn't been discovered yet and in a different political climate---apart from having his upbringing, life experiences in order to have his hatred and bitterness and ... his genes. You'd have to be him physically. There will never be another Hitler that behaves in exactly the same way because there is no longer a Weimar Republic in existence and no Allies perceived to be conspiring against Germany. And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are scarcely believed, too. :D

What would be hard to explain is if two people at different points in history behaved in exactly the same way to a tee---sneezes, warts and all! But such parallels have never been known to happen. No creature on Earth has ever experienced exactly the same as another ... ever! :D

The brain is not a computer ... it is computerised. There is a difference. Every cell in the brain is replaced several times during a lifetime. Cells die and regenerate. A computer has a RAM which is hardly ever replaced. The brain, on the other hand, exhibits neuroplasticity and is constantly changing. Information in the brain is also far more integrated and not limited to syntax like a computer's. Brains have developed semantics and are the most complex forms of matter in the known universe.

The brain was not programmed either. It is the product of billions of years of evolution---a temporal expanse hard for any of us to contemplate. This is what we are trying to understand: What nature has done---via Darwinian natural selection---over millions and millions of years! :o

I also strongly suspect that a multiverse exists. But you know what? I am also willing to bet that many of the universes beyond this one, where the laws of nature are different, never even developed life. :ugeek:

Finally, if life has no objective meaning or purpose and this universe is just a big insignificant mess, why don't I kill myself? Because, as a sentient being, I have things I like about reality. Things that make me feel good. So I create my own purpose which is to maximise pleasant experiences and do the best I can to make my family happy and learn about the world! I'm very lucky to have been presented with the enormity and intricacy of this reality. And I still find this purposeless universe beautiful and this crazy life amazing. So many things to play with now that I've come to be aware of them since my conception! 8-)

My favourite poem is 'Death's Echo' by W H Auden, in particular, this excerpt:

'The desires of the heart are as crooked as corscrews
Not to be born is the best for man
The second best is a formal order
The dance's pattern
dance while you can
Dance dance, for the figure is easy
The tune is catching and will not stop
Dance till the stars come down from the rafters
Dance, dance, dance till you drop'


I'm having the second-best now and saving the best for last. I would also encourage others to do the same. Play until you can play no more. Then you are free of experience. Death ... a much deserved rest. ;)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 01 May 2017 21:53

I also strongly suspect that a multiverse exists. But you know what? I am also willing to bet that many of the universes beyond this one, where the laws of nature are different, never even developed life. :ugeek:


I believe otherwise. I bet they actually did develop life.

Finally, if life has no objective meaning or purpose and this universe is just a big insignificant mess, why don't I kill myself? Because, as a sentient being, I have things I like about reality. Things that make me feel good. So I create my own purpose which is to maximise pleasant experiences and do the best I can to make my family happy and learn about the world! I'm very lucky to have been presented with the enormity and intricacy of this reality. And I still find this purposeless universe beautiful and this crazy life amazing. So many things to play with now that I've come to be aware of them since my conception! 8-)
[/quote]

To be quite fair, since middle school, I'll say it, I have really hated real life and never really wanted to live in real life at all. It's considered taboo to say this, but there I've said it. My psychiatrist had to show me that there was purpose for me in this universe for me to even want to exist at all, as if I truly believed there was no purpose back in middle school, there would have been absolutely nothing convincing me out of what I was about to do.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 01 May 2017 22:07

We all have our perspectives. I care about truth above everything else. If I find the universe to be purposeless and godless, I accept it. I'm actually glad there is no celestial dictatorship (no reason to believe it). And if the purposelessness ever bothered me that much, I'd simply invent purpose for myself. In essence, this just means I'd find something worthwhile to do. I try to spend my time wisely. That's all. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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