The Hereafter

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 27 Apr 2017 21:11

Despite the fact that you may not value serial killers and they are probably despicable to others, they are in a way valuable. If society wasn't so picky about capital punishment and organ donations, I believe people on the transplant waiting list would be valuing them very much with their very lives. Society needs to be so much less picky about organ donation when a person dies, and just harvest the organs if they are still healthy. There are too many people dying out there who really need them.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

DreamerMan99
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby DreamerMan99 » 27 Apr 2017 23:08

lucidé wrote:You seem to believe then that people are worth less than your ham sandwich then? That's pretty horrible.

Lucide, you seem to be obsessed with the idea of worth... what does worth mean to you? Explain why you think any human is objectively worth less or more than a ham sandwich.
Good luck,
Dream on.

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 28 Apr 2017 00:16

Ham sandwiches sustain life. Ham sandwiches are a solution to famine. The three most urgent things which are vital for our survival: air, water, food. (In order of immediacy!) 8-)

What you are basically saying, lucide, is that the only good serial killer is a dead one (i.e. the conglomerate of atoms is no longer killing, ergo, no longer a serial killer)---when their organs can be used to save lives.

A living serial killer, on the other hand, takes lives and visits much misery upon others. Who needs serial killers when good people are also good for blood and organ donation? :)

The argument still stands: ham sandwiches are worth more than serial killers for obvious reasons. The former feeds us, is life-sustaining and will never bother you; the latter is driven by an urge to kill and is potentially destructive in every way.

If I were presented with a tank of molecules and asked to choose between these two possible arrangements, I know what I would pick:

1. Delicious ham sandwich
2. Human serial killer

It's a no-brainer. :D

Ask any religious person ... ham sandwiches are not going to hell! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 28 Apr 2017 02:14

I wouldn't pick the sandwich. As much as I would really be mad at the person who hurt many people and demand justice be placed upon his head for the people he killed, the serial killer is still a human just like every other human, and I don't hate people like this. While people who are really cruel to animals and children really make me ANGRY and I sometimes put them on the Sims 3 to set them on fire, it's just me venting out my anger against them in a very healthy way. I don't hate on anyone in real life because in Utah, many people are taught much better that to go around hating other humans. There is certainly a such thing as learning to distrust others.

I still believe if it were possible, everyone should have Utah immortality. The really bad ones should just be locked up on a planet for 1,000 years in solitary with demoted abilities. The ones who do good deeds should have superior abilities.


Besides that, we all know that sandwich would require "killing a pig" in order to make it. Why not try to get the ingredients fresh yourself and see if you still enjoy the taste in your mouth?

Explain why you think any human is objectively worth less or more than a ham sandwich.


Not just people, but animals as well, I see life in them. I know and believe life has infinite value. Utah says this all the time, that anything that has a life, has infinite value. All life has their own unique personalities, not one life is the same, they are all different. This is what makes life so valuable.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 28 Apr 2017 13:34

lucidé wrote:I wouldn't pick the sandwich. As much as I would really be mad at the person who hurt many people and demand justice be placed upon his head for the people he killed, the serial killer is still a human just like every other human, and I don't hate people like this.


I wouldn't say serial killers are just like every other human. Most humans are sociable and considerate. Psychopaths are anti-social by nature and, although the most extreme ones (killers) may try to pretend they are normal, they ultimately succumb to the urge to be cruel to others.

I don't hate anybody either. As you know, I'm a determinist! Which means that I realise it is not the serial killer's fault he or she is a killer. They are victims of their own biology.

But I would still rather be in the company of a sandwich than a serial killer---just as I'd rather enjoy the Portuguese sun than be right in the middle of hurricanes. A hurricane is a natural phenomenon. It doesn't make sense to hate a particular weather system. But I am well aware of its destructive nature. There is nothing wrong with wanting to avoid it, lucide!

And if you think the psychopath would appreciate your compassion, you are mistaken. :mrgreen:

While people who are really cruel to animals and children really make me ANGRY and I sometimes put them on the Sims 3 to set them on fire, it's just me venting out my anger against them in a very healthy way.


Good. Keep it that way. :mrgreen:

I don't hate on anyone in real life because in Utah, many people are taught much better that to go around hating other humans. There is certainly a such thing as learning to distrust others.


Good, so you know it is more about distrust than hate. This is exactly how I feel about serial killers. I distrust them; I dislike their nature; but I do not hate them for being who they are---they can't help it. :)

I still believe if it were possible, everyone should have Utah immortality. The really bad ones should just be locked up on a planet for 1,000 years in solitary with demoted abilities. The ones who do good deeds should have superior abilities.


It would be more humane to swiftly kill the baddies. :idea:


Besides that, we all know that sandwich would require "killing a pig" in order to make it. Why not try to get the ingredients fresh yourself and see if you still enjoy the taste in your mouth?


That's a completely different topic. First of all, there are sandwiches that do not require the killing of pigs. Secondly, we are talking about creating something out of a soup of molecules. We are talking about atomic structures that define things and people.

Let's say you have an atomic structure generator. 'Stardust' goes into the machine's vaccum and the atoms are reorganised to produce animate and inanimate matter. Since it can produce anything, a serial killer wouldn't have to be conceived by human progenitors and food would not require the killing of pre-existing animals. You can form them out of the blue! The machine suggest a couple of choices for the day: A human serial killer or a sandwich? Which one would you bring into existence, lucide? I'd pick the sandwich hands down!

Life is overrated in my opinion. You find me one person that hasn't wished he or she hadn't been born at least once in their lives and then we'll talk. In general, despite the hardships, people may love to be alive---no doubt! But the value of life is only subjective in this sense. Life can be destructive, too, and it is certainly not perfect. There are also many different galaxies in the universe but we don't say they are 'infinitely valuable'. :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 28 Apr 2017 16:14

Summerlander wrote:
And if you think the psychopath would appreciate your compassion, you are mistaken. :mrgreen:


There was a story on ID about a woman who showed great kindness to her serial killer kidnapper, and taught him all about forgiveness, and how he could transform into a new man. While this does not always happen, that particular serial killer made an amazing transformation, and became much more of a gentleman after he got through becoming friends with that woman.



Good, so you know it is more about distrust than hate. This is exactly how I feel about serial killers. I distrust them; I dislike their nature; but I do not hate them for being who they are---they can't help it. :)


They made some BIG mistakes, however, it isn't to say a criminal, no matter however how bad they are.

It would be more humane to swiftly kill the baddies. :idea:

For the time being, since we cannot live with those abilities, that's probably true. If one day, we could end up with immortality, I believe we should use DNA to bring everyone back

Let's say you have an atomic structure generator. 'Stardust' goes into the machine's vaccum and the atoms are reorganised to produce animate and inanimate matter. Since it can produce anything, a serial killer wouldn't have to be conceived by human progenitors and food would not require the killing of pre-existing animals. You can form them out of the blue! The machine suggest a couple of choices for the day: A human serial killer or a sandwich? Which one would you bring into existence, lucide? I'd pick the sandwich hands down!


Neither of them. If I can create anything out of an atomic structure generator, I am creating that quasiplatonic friend I have from my lucid dream, and reprogramming in all his memories. Then I really will have a very best friend to hang out with in real life I can for once trust.

Life is overrated in my opinion. You find me one person that hasn't wished he or she hadn't been born at least once in their lives and then we'll talk. In general, despite the hardships, people may love to be alive---no doubt! But the value of life is only subjective in this sense. Life can be destructive, too, and it is certainly not perfect. There are also many different galaxies in the universe but we don't say they are 'infinitely valuable'. :D

People and animals certainly are infinitely valuable. I just see value in all life, and while you may not, that's your point of view.
BTW, not everyone "loves" to be alive, otherwise there wouldn't be a high suicide rate in certain areas of the world, such as Utah and Japan.
As far as the wished they haven't been born, unfortunately everyone goes through this, but that doesn't mean that it lessens the value of a person in the least. If many of the ones in Utah didn't see people and animals with infinite value, we wouldn't be willing to go as far as to even through our bodies in danger's path to protect another.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 29 Apr 2017 00:18

Should we bring back Hitler? By the way, you must pick one. Killer or sandwich? Say someone forced you to make a choice at gunpoint in front of the atomic structure generator! Which one? :mrgreen:

By the way, I never said everyone loves to be alive. I said people may love to be alive---a statement which can be extrapolated from the many people you meet who will never take their own lives. Certainly most prefer to be alive than dead. The number of suicides is still measley compared to the majority who live through the hardships in the hope that it'll get better. People don't give up so easily! :)

Also, the fact that practically everybody at some point in their lives rue the day they were born certainly doesn't diminish their worth but it does say something about life: Life cannot be infinitely valuable if people consider ending it or come to regret it. :ugeek:

To append: I would not risk my life for any animal. Perhaps Utah is deluded. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 29 Apr 2017 02:22

Summerlander wrote:Should we bring back Hitler? By the way, you must pick one. Killer or sandwich? Say someone forced you to make a choice at gunpoint in front of the atomic structure generator! Which one? :mrgreen:


I'd tell the gunner, "Look aliens are invading over on that hill!" The gunner would say, "Where?" Then I would use a karate move to break the arm of the hand holding the gun, then I would take the gun, point it at the gunner and tell him, "Now I own the controls!" (zaps that someone to an island, then creates a sandwich that has no meat on it from Melty's cheese sandwiches. )

Besides that, I am sure if you had the atom rearranging machine, and had the choice to turn every user you disagreed with and thought they were worthless @#$@ into ham sandwiches, you'd probably be using it on them to turn them into your dinner anyways.

Also, the fact that practically everybody at some point in their lives rue the day they were born certainly doesn't diminish their worth but it does say something about life: Life cannot be infinitely valuable if people consider ending it or come to regret it. :ugeek:

I mostly meant that people and animals were infinitely valuable, as in their personalities.

To append: I would not risk my life for any animal. Perhaps Utah is deluded. :mrgreen:

I certainly would risk my life to save an animal. There have been a few incidents in Utah where kids have gotten run over trying to save puppies from becoming road killed, and countless times where citizens have gone into burning buildings just to save an animal. Utah really values people and animal life. I nearly ran out into the road to rescue a dog that ran out in the middle of the road myself BTW.

Utah IS not deluded in the way they believe. They just really care about their wildlife and their animals very much. At least they know animals have feelings, and wouldn't consider hurting an animal, unlike some people I know. Maybe you might not understand how much people and animals are worth in your eyes, but in Utah, we see so much value in people and animals (there have been many who have gone into burning buildings just to save someone's pet and I would do the same thing), just like this man in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_jltkNV_hs
Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are delusional. Not everyone in this world is schizo like you seem to believe they are. Or maybe we aren't the type of people like you who think that doing things like this to animals is okay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQZzUlokRc

Hey Summerlander? Did you just become a moderator on here or something? Because I am having more and more problems logging on than I did before, and a few times when I tried to log in, I ended up in Hagart's account. I feel like this might be a practical joke you are playing on me.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: The Hereafter

Postby Summerlander » 29 Apr 2017 10:31

lucidé wrote:
Summerlander wrote:Should we bring back Hitler? By the way, you must pick one. Killer or sandwich? Say someone forced you to make a choice at gunpoint in front of the atomic structure generator! Which one? :mrgreen:


I'd tell the gunner, "Look aliens are invading over on that hill!" The gunner would say, "Where?" Then I would use a karate move to break the arm of the hand holding the gun, then I would take the gun, point it at the gunner and tell him, "Now I own the controls!" (zaps that someone to an island, then creates a sandwich that has no meat on it from Melty's cheese sandwiches. )


Well, at least you picked a sandwich! :lol:
But you do know that at the atomic level a Melty's cheese sandwich is made of the same energy as a ham sandwich, right? The atoms are just arranged in a different way which makes all the difference. One is just more carbon-based. :geek:

lucide wrote:Besides that, I am sure if you had the atom rearranging machine, and had the choice to turn every user you disagreed with and thought they were worthless @#$@ into ham sandwiches, you'd probably be using it on them to turn them into your dinner anyways.


Nah. I've got enough food in my fridge. Besides ... I like to debate. I wouldn't want everyone to agree with me. I want people to think for themselves and point out where they think I'm wrong. I may think they are wrong but I value their input. When I ask them to expatiate I sometimes find that their input causes me to refine my theories or reevaluate my statements. For example, you help me to construct didactic disquisitions as your input forces me into wholesome involutions. :ugeek:

lucide wrote:
Summerlander wrote:Also, the fact that practically everybody at some point in their lives rue the day they were born certainly doesn't diminish their worth but it does say something about life: Life cannot be infinitely valuable if people consider ending it or come to regret it. :ugeek:

I mostly meant that people and animals were infinitely valuable, as in their personalities.


What is so valuable about a psychotic personality?

lucide wrote:Utah IS not deluded in the way they believe. They just really care about their wildlife and their animals very much. At least they know animals have feelings, and wouldn't consider hurting an animal, unlike some people I know. Maybe you might not understand how much people and animals are worth in your eyes, but in Utah, we see so much value in people and animals (there have been many who have gone into burning buildings just to save someone's pet and I would do the same thing), just like this man in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_jltkNV_hs
Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are delusional.


Do you think the animals value the humans who rescued them? Do you think they understand they were saved by a member of another species?

lucide wrote:Not everyone in this world is schizo like you seem to believe they are. Or maybe we aren't the type of people like you who think that doing things like this to animals is okay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQZzUlokRc


Not schizos. But they are crazy enough to put themselves in harms way just to save pets.

lucide wrote:Hey Summerlander? Did you just become a moderator on here or something? Because I am having more and more problems logging on than I did before, and a few times when I tried to log in, I ended up in Hagart's account. I feel like this might be a practical joke you are playing on me.


I've had problems too. I only moderate OBE4u (Michael Raduga's forum). 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

lucidé
Posts: 497
Joined: 04 Feb 2017 03:10

Re: The Hereafter

Postby lucidé » 29 Apr 2017 16:54

Summerlander wrote:
Well, at least you picked a sandwich! :lol:
But you do know that at the atomic level a Melty's cheese sandwich is made of the same energy as a ham sandwich, right? The atoms are just arranged in a different way which makes all the difference. One is just more carbon-based. :geek:


I wouldn't be picking a person whom I know could hurt me, that would be ridiculous.


What is so valuable about a psychotic personality?

As long as they are put in a safe place where they cannot hurt anyone, if you show that person "empathy", you might be able to bring out the best in the psychotic person. My father worked in a prison, and I will tell you, he said when he showed them "empathy", some of the very worst of them had a bit of soft personality many never really were able to see, because they never really tried showing empathy towards them.
As far the mentally handicapped are concerned, the very same thing goes with the mentally handicapped. I showed what is called empathy towards the mentally handicapped, and it quite often brought out the best most of them. Despite the fact that you may not like many of the stories that they believe in, because many of them really do have the brains of children, some of them really need the encouragement to move forward. With the high functioning ones especially, because despite the fact that ritualistic behavior is going to be a problem in many of them (Spongebob shows this will be a problem for high functioning handicapped people with Spongebob, when he starts a cult where he worships a talking sea shell, which comedy happens in that episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu5SJcNp0J0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPY1IvAGnAM they were going to let their friend starve to death because the shell told their friend he couldn't have anything to eat, which is extremely funny. Spongebob is obviously autistic and does many repetitive behaviors in episodes because of this)

Do you think the animals value the humans who rescued them? Do you think they understand they were saved by a member of another species?

Yes I believe they often do value the humans who rescued them. Most often when they are rescued, the animal will smother the human with their affection (like in that video), or they will show affection in their own way. This is often the animal in their own way thanking the human.
I personally think some animals are worth saving much more than some ungrateful $#@#, when you decide to risk your life to save their lives. In return, they decide to sue your @#$ to get money off of you. (and if you don't believe me, watch this clip from The Incredibles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4J-Fuo0vLE ) At least risking your life for the grateful animal is completely risk free of lawsuit and you have the animal nuzzling your face when you save them.


Not schizos. But they are crazy enough to put themselves in harms way just to save pets.

That's because pets are to us, like members of a family, not just possessions, like they are to you. Animals are valued members of society to us, and we would do anything for them. Also I would probably allow myself to get burned or tied up and thrown into a lake in the cat's or dog's place if I saw you were going to do that to the poor animal. I would be able to get myself out of the bag, no worries, as I could carry a knife and cut myself out of the bag, then swim out, unlike the poor animal who cannot protect itself.

BTW, I am so close to my animals, that if I did lose one of them, I would fall into depression really fast, and I mean that very same depression and emotional episodes that I went through in middle school. Where my medications fail to compress my emotions, and an emotion can become so intense, sometimes I am not even myself while the emotion happens. This can go on for months, where even the psychiatrist cannot help me, she can only be there to support me. Besides the fact I care about others and animals very much, I know also my emotions and depression could suffer a very horrible fate if I don't do something. So I am not just choosing whether I want to save lives or not, the stakes are much higher than that. I don't think anyone given the choice would want to live a life like that.


I've had problems too. I only moderate OBE4u (Michael Raduga's forum). 8-)


I don't get why you would moderate a forum talking about ghosts when you don't believe in them.
Although maybe it's the same way I am trying to explain the scientific way people can use "dream meshing", which the other users don't seem to be listening to me when I keep trying to explain that one to them. I am very serious about this one, if 2 users are at a high enough level of lucid dreaming and both manage to have the ability of keeping track of real life time in a lucid dream, they can both attempt to program their lucid dreams to be extremely similar and even program each other in them. This is an extremely difficult lucid dream task, however, my lucid dream friends and I managed to accomplish this years ago when we attempted this many times. Exchanging conversations has to do with probability, and yes this is possible. The closer your interests are, the higher the chances you will exchange accurate conversations. As far as exchanging a password during a meshed lucid dream, my lucid dream friends and I fiddled with this many times as well. While because my friends and I were extremely lucky with low probability and managed to do this many times, I am going to say, for a well seasoned lucid dreamer, the true odds of doing this I would say are approximately 1 in 200. Not great, but not horrible for what they are at the same time. If you really want to press your luck with the meshing, I would say for both lucid dreamers to try a dream spying experiment at the same time. When you deal with odds like this, it's much like you and the friends are all at slot machines at the same time, and you must all score 777 at the slot machines at the same time. Think it through, this is extremely unlikely, isn't it? However, it is also not impossible.

I just write in my DJ. While I rather not write about the whole ghost thing due to my phobia, I tend to write about my incidents of dream spying and meshing. The laws of chance aren't necessarily picky about how many times that can happen.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g


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