Astral projection

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 28 Nov 2011 02:12

Not trying to beat a dead horse, just understand what you are saying,,,

Are you saying that by just "thinking", I should be able to remember what happened to other people?

That there is enough input from my current life to know what happened to someone else in a previous life?

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 28 Nov 2011 02:24

Just by thinking we can construct anything we wish.
There is enough imput in daily life and stored in our minds to create anything
There will be vast gaps in any past life story I would expect
The previous life bit is the reason given because of the need to explain, I truly dont know either way and the complete disussion from OBE to LD and past life dont really need to be rolled into one theory in support of each other.
Didnt Einstein try to make the big theory and fail ?

Other people, we all get insights and times when we know who is on the phone or get a call from someone that we have not heard off for a long time when they come into our minds. So some of this energy is transmitted, nothing special about this as sight, sound are simply energy transmitted and received but they are so common we dont try to explain them.
I dont doubt that some past life energy may be hanging around but can get close to beleiving that it imples its you past life and that we have past lives
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 28 Nov 2011 22:41

Peter wrote:
So my question is this-
While this is a little unlikely if you were to think that you are simply like a little battery or single unjoined power unit and there is no afterlife, no past life and really in some ways no life except what our senses generate and our own reality I suspect you would not want to believe it. It’s a lonely thought and not one many would want to believe and to me that is at the centre of all the reasoning - which it is driven by a need to believe in something greater than what we are instead of accepting that we have life and are here now.


A lonely thought? Why? It doesn't have to be...

I have been pondering over this concept for a long time now, and, if someone was to ask me if there is an afterlife, my answer would be: maybe. I can’t be sure even though I experience the phase. I suspect that, when we die, we go back to being in the same state that we were before we were born, whether existent or non-existent.

Many people fantasise about an afterlife of otherworldly exploration, contact with other beings and the eventuation of their wishes. The phase state is often surmised to be a glimpse of the immediate afterlife even though it is very much a condition of being alive in which the brain is active - more so than the delta waves of deep dreamless sleep - and the cerebral areas associated with waking states are often found to be functional during lucidity.

If death really is the cessation of being - and thus the end of experience and cognition - then it is also the end of suffering. You won’t know that you are dead, you won’t know that you are not suffering, you won’t know that you are not perceiving, and you won’t know anything. In conclusion: there is no you! People find this hard to imagine and some even go as far as to say that such notion is more incredible than the idea of an afterlife in the spirit realms. Some even say that non-existence makes no sense. But the truth is that we were dead before we were born, alas, we already know what death is like. This could mean that death is simply going back to the pre-birth state.

Theoretically speaking, what constitutes us becomes something else which gives rise to the possibility of rebirth. I’ll use the computer analogy in that, if death means deletion of a file (sentient being), the information it contains goes in the recycle bin, where, overtime, the data that constitutes it gets reconfigured. Being absent from life or any sort of interaction is a notion that can convey a sense of much needed rest from the living perspective, but, in death, you are not even resting - you are beyond that!

When something as important as the cerebral cortex is damaged, for example, one may very easily slip into a long-term coma. Individuals who have woken up from these were oblivious to how much time had passed due to their lapse in consciousness. Because they were unaware of the time that passed while unconscious, the coma state from their perspective was losing their senses in one moment and regaining awareness the next. Confusion manifests as soon as they become conscious. Suffering usually begins when they realise how much time has passed, how much they’ve missed, and how things have changed.

Their nightmare begins in consciousness and effort is required to get used to their newfound status of loss and overcome their problems. If death is the cessation of being, then it is also the end of all problems. One should not, however, see death as an escape from an apparently harsh reality and commit suicide, as this could be psychologically detrimental to loved ones and one should make the most of life and be the best person they can be.

On the other hand, consciousness could survive death if we consider the possibility that the existence of “I“ is not dependent upon brain or bodily functions, and that thoughts may operate on another frequency of reality. An afterlife then, would perpetuate experience and bring everything that comes with it. Do we tap into this hypothetical frequency of reality when we enter the phase, or is it all an illusion produced by electrochemical functions of the brain? The following is an interesting story for pondering purposes…

My stepfather Sergio was an alcoholic who developed cirrhosis. Eventually, he committed suicide and I started to have a series of strange vivid dreams, one in particular where he confirmed to me that the afterlife is real. In others, he seemed unhappy and appeared to carry what looked like phantom black bags attached to his torso. Then I learned about OOBEs and I set myself the goal of making contact with him.

The first contact with what seemed to be him, after having entered the phase, seemed to show me that he was living out some fantasy in a summer landscape that looked like Portugal, where the sky was deeply blue and surreal. I had separated into what looked like my bedroom and had the urge to fly at high speed in one particular direction. I found myself in an airport hovering as a floating head. I descended into the ground and went right through it. Underground, I saw people in some kind of basement where something was being cooked. Embedded in some wall, I also saw a mouse or a rat scurry past me through some passage. I wished to leave that place and found myself elsewhere. There was a room and two people asleep on a bed. I then thought that perhaps I could visit Sergio and thought about nothing but him. I found him in the Portugal-like environment.

He was driving a car really well and fast, like a kid having fun. When he was alive, he was a terrible driver. Every time he drove, accidents did or almost happened. But he always wanted to drive because if he didn't he'd feel worthless as a man. In my phase, he drove at an incredible speed and I could feel his excitement. He swerved away from obstacles and was in total control. It was like his own lucid dream! He also had passengers in the car which he spoke to and they seemed to admire him as well as his driving skills. I saw what was happening from the outside, and then, I was inside the car next to his passengers. They ignored me. I was still a floating head as I shouted his name. He turned and looked perplexed. Subsequently, a huge force pulled me back and I woke up in my bed. I felt as though I had been a ‘living ghost' in his world - a portion of the land of the dead.

The next encounter was in a strange room and he was crying. I asked him if he was alright and he told me that he regretted many things he had done when he was alive. I patted him on the back and told him that everyone makes mistakes, and that no one blames him for what he did. This put a smile on his face. Then, he turned to me and asked in bewilderment about how it was possible that I could visit him. I told him about OOBEs and he seemed interested. The next experience was a DILD where I was observing a great landscape from a strange room which seemed to be the top floor of a tower. The sky outside was particularly eye-catching because it was pink.

Suddenly, there was a knock on the door that took me by surprise because I did not expect to see anyone. I opened the door and a strange man, who looked Portuguese, told me I had a visit. I looked behind him and saw that the visitant, whose skin was white and slightly shiny, was Sergio. He told me he was visiting me. I asked him who the other man was and he said that it didn't matter as what mattered most was that he was present. The other man entered what looked like a bathroom and disappeared. Sergio then told me that he would have been “42” if he was still alive. He seemed wiser and there was something about him which was somewhat charismatic. We started talking about something else but I can't remember what was said as it seemed like we communicated through a mixture of words and telepathy. He also seemed to be getting more out of the conversation than me.

We started to go down a staircase that appeared to be infinite and descended into darkness. He suddenly stopped and stayed at the top as he smiled at me. I continued to go down as I looked back at the same time. There was light where he was while I descended into a dark void. Sergio remained, as if the lit area was his world, and he was not coming with me because he simply had nothing to come back to. After a falling sensation, I woke up. I knew it had been his birthday recently but didn't know how old he would have been. When I asked my mother how old he would have been she said "42”.

There have been other experiences, but this, so far, could be interpreted as pretty convincing evidence of an afterlife. Still, the uncertainty remains. What if it was all imagined and subconsciously I already knew how old he would have been? Whether real communication with the dead in the phase state is possible or not, nobody knows, but such experiences are certainly exhilarating, and, at times, emotionally intense.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 28 Nov 2011 23:35

Peter:
I'm not setting out to create a grand theory of everything. It's just that in order to remember something in factual detail (not a fiction created out of random memories) requires that the information be located somewhere. Sure, I suppose the data could just be randomly hanging around in the air in a virus or something, available for anyone who walks by to assimilate it, but that seems more far fetched to me than a pool of experiences located in non-phys reality as part of our extended selves. At least the "non physical self" theory has a documented history of witnesses that although may not qualify as proof, strongly hint at its existence.

As we've all undoubtedly said previously, these questions are thorny and we each will need to use our own judgement and experience. For me, large numbers of credible eye witness accounts are hard to ignore and I'm trying to add some personal first hand experience into the equation as well.

I'm not really worried about whether the nature of reality is lonely, only that it is the best explanation I can find for how things work

Summerlander- really interesting story. Of course, as you've already said, a creative mind could have imagined all of that. Which is why I keep coming back to those specific cases of discovering unknowable significant facts while in a non-physical space. This is a critical puzzle piece which (for me) tips the scale.

In the end: I may end up back where I started, thinking life is just a big mystery that ends up over when it's over. On the other hand, I may end up embracing something that is provable enough, and is a better fit than the alternative explanations. We'll see.

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 28 Nov 2011 23:57

I have no doubt that the relics from the past exist and that at times the future comes our way as well. I dont think we have a past life -really dont want one either as one life is plenty, just make the most of it.

I have met plenty of dead friends and had some suprises in statements rather that facts - an uncle that died in a wheel chair told me he was free and could walk again. A young friend told me at the end of a conversation that he was happy as there was no day or night where he was and that meant that he could play all day as he didnt need to sleep. So many they are lost to time now.

Past, present, future and one big energy system connecting all, yes why not we all have touched on it at times and no doubt will have plenty more to write about as we get beter at exploring the dream world.

Where we started, OBE and Astral travel - I think it comes to us and we dont leave our minds. Does make it less or more.

Past lives, hope not but energy to be tapped intol - most likely yes

There is alot in this thread and I would hope to keep it going for a bit yet
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 29 Nov 2011 12:37

We don't have to leave our bodies and cover actual distance to get to such worlds because time and space as we know it in physical reality does not apply there. We can be sure that everything there, even space/distance is illusory even though it often emulates actuality quite closely. Even "you" there are a representation. The dream body has no actual existence but a metaphysical one.

This appears to rule out any actual "out-of-body" state (and in fact there is also no evidence that the "self" is "in-the-body" - yep, the "I" is found nowhere), however, the term "OOBE" (out-of-body experience) may still be used and regarded as a pragmatic term because, after all, that is the experience we get...the experience of being out of our bodies or somewhere else other than physically lying in bed.

Whatever that world is, where we can manifest our thought forms and view them as physical representations - and possibly explore the creations of others too - we can be sure that it is naturally different to the physical realm. Perhaps it is a more intrinsic level of reality where consciousness as a medium is more dominant. Perhaps things are more alive there! Wouldn't it be ironic if being dead actually means being more alive than being alive? Perhaps being alive narrows our perspective and we may be unaware of an existent paradoxical bridge in the life-death dichotomy. Whether OOBEs and lucid dreams present us with a glimpse of the afterlife or not remains to be seen.

I really enjoyed the debate we had here folks. fuzzylogic, it wasn't my intention to come across as persistently contradictory, I just like to lay out other possibilities in case people are only aware of the more popular and fantastical ones. By no means am I denying the possibility of reincarnation at all costs. As you may have realised from my long post above...if we were non-existent (at least from the living point of view) before birth and yet we were born...why not do it again after death, right? The historical Buddha was a very observant human being, and, if in his philosophy he postulated the manifestation of multiple rebirths, it must have been for a reason.

Good luck in your journeys and I hope you all find the truth that best resonates with you. :idea:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 29 Nov 2011 14:40

A very interesting and illuminating exchange of ideas. Really glad we could keep it constructive and moving forward, as many of these sorts of conversations break down mid-stream.

This thread is getting to be the size of a book,,, but if someone wants to see some ideas exchanged about this stuff, it's probably a good read.

Thanks for the food for thought.

As far as "keeping it going", I'm here in the event that anyone has further thoughts. I'm always up for a bit more discussion on this topic.

Regards.

thomas
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Re: Astral projection

Postby thomas » 30 Nov 2011 07:21

Wow - just came across this thread - lots of food for thought! Here's a couple tidbits. First off, I grew up believing that dead is dead. Non-existence. I went to college and became a nurse. I worked trauma. As part of a code team I always felt sorry for those that were lost. (I have been doing nursing for about 30 years now.) Now, one day - early in my career - we were coding an elderly gentleman. Believe it or not, a piece of intubating equipment was missing off the crash cart. I had to run down a flight of stairs to get it. At the time I left to get this equipment this man had no pulse or respiration - and had been at that state for at least a couple of minutes. I returned to the code and it continued on for a couple of more minutes or so before we "got him back". The next day I was talking with him and he was very depressed. I asked him "why?" and this is what he told me. (He did not want to tell me for fear I would think him crazy.)

He said that when he "was dead" he saw me. He stated he followed me to the next floor to get the equipment. He stated I dropped it - which I did. He also told me what I had said to the other nurses as I was getting the equipment - the exact words. He stated he was depressed because he didn't want to be on this earth anymore. He had seen he deceased wife but she told him he had to go back.

Now, this was a huge shock to me. My belief system was shattered. No more "when you're dead, your dead" (as in no continuation.) Now in case you are thinking this was a joke played on me by other nurses it wasn't. Being a large hospital (hundreds of beds) I didn't really converse with others outside my area. Plus - that would be a cruel joke to this gentleman, not to mention, extremely unprofessional. This man was discharged from the hospital and remained depressed. I never saw him again after that.


So, this was not a LD. It was not a normal dream. This happened in the waking world. He was dead by our monitors - heart rate was zip. No breathing. How in the heck could he have seen me? How could he have heard anything? And for sure he was not moving about in his physical body!

After months and months of thinking about this, I decided that some part of us continues to go on. I tried to debunk it every way I could because it did not coincide with my belief system at the time. That was the beginning of a search for me. It continues to this day.

This man acquired information that he could not have known -while he was dead. How is that possible? Here's some of that proof you were speaking of fuzzylogic. Now for me this was a first hand experience. I realize that for those of you reading this it is anecdotal. I am glad I was there - it really rocked my world. It was eye opening. I absolutely hated it at the time though. Kept me up many, many nights.

This man was conscious while his body had no vitals. None. He was able to move, see, hear and speak - though no one could hear him. What part of him was this? Is this what is experienced at times in lucid dreams. I don't know. I have no idea. I will continue to search and keep an open mind. But clearly - in my opinion - there is much more. And so ... the search goes on.



Thomas

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 30 Nov 2011 09:51

thanks for posting - this is about where it all started with the need to explain and within the context of what we already know. OBE can come from waking life in times of stress. I had a motor bike crash a long time back and in the instants before impact I was out of my body and watching only to return an instant after the impact. I was clearly alive at the time. I have also had some odd experiances when my first daughter was borne with moments when I felt like I was seeing world out of her eyes so one of us was putting our "energy" into the other and as she was a few days old I was seeing the world through her eyes.
This last experiance is a hard one to explain but was not uncommon as it happened a few times.

I dont doubt the recall and post you made but for now dont have a way to fit it into what I know, not that I many answers....


Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 30 Nov 2011 13:56

Thomas:

Based on your last post I thought I would clearly list what I "know" vs what I am coming to know.

Although I continue to try and learn and discover, here's what I can reasonably state that I "know". This knowing is a personal and subjective thing and will vary by individual. This isn't driven by fear or desire but evidence and intuition.

- People can perceive more than our traditional 5 senses are able to detect.

- Information exists in some form that seems to be disconnected from the physical. ie: it seems to be unbound by "normal" physical laws. (ie Thomas's patient perceiving him get the missing equipment)

- People have the ability to access this non-physical information, and they can store and recall it just as if it was perceived physically. Ie: we can bring back those physical experiences to whatever we use (the biological brain?) to store the memories.

- This means that as living entities, we are a combination of experiences in the physical and non-physical.

The following is obviously going a lot further and as Summerlander properly stated very early in this thread, really is "new age" in it's implications. I never considered myself a new ager but have come to find out, that's exactly what my belief system is moving toward.

The things below are not all necessary in order to explain many of the strange experiences we have talked about but without them there is a whole set of still unexplained things about the world. Of course I'm not just inventing wild ideas to explain the odd stories, these things fit with a large number of first hand accounts, which I feel given their numbers and consistency have enough merit to consider. Of course I realise that most if not all of the following is simply to much for most people to take seriously.

So what's on the table for consideration and I am coming to believe is the following:

- Our existence extends beyond our physical bodies and extends into this non-physical realm that I already "know" is there.

- When we die we continue to exist in this "other" space. It is the same space that many of us discovered when we were alive and is where/why/how Thomas's patient saw his wife.

- This other space is complex and vast and multi faceted. This is explains the vast number of different types of data that seem to exist there. From physical appearing objects similar to our shared waking world, to future events, to living personas who are exploring (perhaps in dream or OBE states), to dead personas, etc. Thomas Campbell describes this as a vast "database" of information that we perceive through or own individual minds. Thus explaining the variation of experiences from individual to individual.

- That we have an entire existence between lives where we learn and grow and generally "live", and interact with other "souls". Again- these accounts have been described many times by many people. Also if entities like the patient's wife are really there: what is she doing there? How long will she be there? This fits.

Interestingly- most of the people in the world already believe in this in some form. Among other names, it's called heaven.. The only difference for me is: I don't think it has anything to do with a religion, and I don't believe in it because I'm afraid to die. I think these stories exist in all religions because this non-physical space was perceived by humans thousands of years ago and thus the accounts became intermixed with various forms of worship.

- We may or may not choose to live again in the physical in order to continue our growth. When we do, we mostly forget our previous lives during life, but retain the experiences in our non-physical existence.

So there you have it.

Peter commented earlier that perhaps we shouldn't be trying to unify all of this into one grand theory of everything. I am not setting out to do so, it just seems that all these pieces seem to fit together quite nicely into one explanation, which again, has been described by many people, but which most people just aren't willing to swallow,, and understandably so, it is truly bizarre

More bizarre than the double slit experiment? I don't think so. But that's just me.

Anyway- more food for thought...


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