Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

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HAGART
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby HAGART » 03 Sep 2012 09:12

I too question how lucid I am of reality as a result of lucid dreams. We get lost in the real waking world too all the time and 'sleep walk'. For example sometimes we day dream while driving a car and wonder how we were able to get home safely when we were in 'automatic mode'. Most animals on this planet are in a constant automatic mode, only reacting to things as they happen like cause and effect. We too have those traits for example touching something hot causes an automatic reflex. Perhaps being self aware is what makes us lucid of reality and it already WAS the next step. But just how lucid can you get? Is there another level?

I've always been fascinated by Budda's theory of spiritual enlightenment and perhaps realizing something amiss about waking life and becoming fully lucid (just like in a dream but while awake) IS the next step......
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

Tarpaulin
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby Tarpaulin » 03 Sep 2012 09:44

The next step. - So here's couple of thoughts based on an extrapolation from the difference between non-lucid and lucid dreaming. the following therefore has as base premise that what applies in the dream realm also applies in the waking realm ("as above so below" to use the hermetic axiom).

In the default non lucid dream state we have no awareness that it is our own minds that are creating the dream. We believe it to be objectively real and we believe there are external causes and effects in the dream world which drive the action which we are participating in. Once we become lucid we realize that the only real causes are our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions and that it is they which are creating our dream environment and dream experiences. Now, to the extent that we have mastery, over our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions, we are able to consciously create our dream environment it's events.

If the same is true of the waking realm then in a lucid state we would also realize that our belief in any kind of cause/effect which is outside of our minds is an error and that again all "causes" come from within our minds. it is our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions which are creating this environment just as they are in the dream environment. To become lucid in the waking realm would mean that we would now be able to consciously create our waking environment and its events in just the same way as we can in the dream realm. again the degree to which we can do this would be directly proportional to the level of mastery we have over our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions.

The reason why "Lucid Dreaming" might be step one in the process is that it is a great deal easier to change our beliefs about the nature of dreams than it is the nature of the waking realm. In the waking state we already believe that the dream realm is created by the mind whereas we believe that the waking realm is objectively real. In the dream realm if we are able to think of the waking state the belief that it is objectively real is still present. In other words we need to do a great deal more belief changing to become lucid in the waking realm than we do in the dream realm.

Up we have been blind actors on the stages of our own creation both in the dream and waking realms. Now we have realized that we have the power to create and direct in the dream realm. this realization could empower us to begin questioning our real role in the waking realm.

Make any sense?

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HAGART
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby HAGART » 03 Sep 2012 10:16

I saw a cool documentary about "the meaning of life" written and hosted by Stephen Hawking. In the end, he concludes that reality and the universe is all in our own minds. All reality is perception and we all perceive it differently. I have a dog and wonder sometimes how he views the universe. I know he dreams because sometimes he barks in his sleep. (or at least I BELIEVE he does) But I don't think he is ever capable of lucid dreaming because he is not lucid in waking life. But then again... how lucid am I?

I have no answers, and when it comes to philosophical questions like this, it is much easier to pose the questions. If we surveyed a thousand people to answer this question, we would get a thousand different answers.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Sep 2012 18:13

Thanks to all who are participating in this great conversation. I've really enjoying reading the comments here and there is a lot of food for thought!

Tarpaulin wrote:If the same is true of the waking realm then in a lucid state we would also realize that our belief in any kind of cause/effect which is outside of our minds is an error and that again all "causes" come from within our minds. it is our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions which are creating this environment just as they are in the dream environment.


I completely agree with this statement and believe it is true. But if this is true, the main thing that's different from the dream world is there of billions of participants in this reality VS. the dream reality. Some have suggested that this is the reason for the level of stability and consistancy we experience. I wonder what would happen if our entire world population became "lucid" in the way you suggest. The entire planet might change, literally.

Tarpaulin wrote:In the default non lucid dream state we have no awareness that it is our own minds that are creating the dream.
This is true, but recently I have started to become aware at some other level that I am creating the dream even when in a non-lucid state. The dream creation mechanism is located somewhere other than wherever the normal thoughts are generated at some other level and is not controlled in the same way. It's deeper somehow. My thoughts are that the process is more "belief driven" if you will and not "thought driven" One person on this forum said that whenever he wants to drive a certain car, he reaches for keys first and when he gets the keys, the car appears. Generally we don't think of controlling our beliefs in real time to create something, but I think dreams and hopefully waking life works that way.

HAGART wrote:I saw a cool documentary about "the meaning of life" written and hosted by Stephen Hawking. In the end, he concludes that reality and the universe is all in our own minds.


Sounds like something I'd like to see. Do you know if it's available on-line?
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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HAGART
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby HAGART » 04 Sep 2012 05:27

lucidinthe sky wrote:Sounds like something I'd like to see. Do you know if it's available on-line?


Yea, I found it on You Tube. Go there and copy and paste the below in the search bar at top of You Tube:

(Stephen Hawking`s Grand Design-The Meaning Of Life)-part1 (It has Chinese subtitles but it was the only one I found. It's broken into 5 parts so when the first is done just change the "1" to a "2" and search for the next part.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 04 Sep 2012 06:38

I watched and liked it.

Learned a new concept in physics called "model dependent reality". Simple idea, but very interesting and will surely give me more to think about.

At the end, Hawking says this: The meaning of life is not somewhere out there, but right between our ears. In many ways this makes us the lords of creation.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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torakrubik
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby torakrubik » 04 Sep 2012 23:06

lucidinthe sky wrote:
Tarpaulin wrote:If the same is true of the waking realm then in a lucid state we would also realize that our belief in any kind of cause/effect which is outside of our minds is an error and that again all "causes" come from within our minds. it is our own beliefs, thoughts and emotions which are creating this environment just as they are in the dream environment.


I completely agree with this statement and believe it is true. But if this is true, the main thing that's different from the dream world is there of billions of participants in this reality VS. the dream reality. Some have suggested that this is the reason for the level of stability and consistancy we experience. I wonder what would happen if our entire world population became "lucid" in the way you suggest. The entire planet might change, literally.




So perhaps the more people who believe a certain 'reality' is real, the more stable it actually becomes...that sounds just like the Tulpa effect. In fact, this would explain the haphazard and often unpredictable nature of dreams, contrasted against the relative normality of waking reality.
Dreaming is my drug

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 04 Sep 2012 23:44

torakrubik wrote:So perhaps the more people who believe a certain 'reality' is real, the more stable it actually becomes...that sounds just like the Tulpa effect. In fact, this would explain the haphazard and often unpredictable nature of dreams, contrasted against the relative normality of waking reality.


From what I've learned about Quantum Mechanics, the leading theories seem to be saying that the structure of the universe at the quantum level really can only be defined as a field of probabilties and that the act of measuring causes one specific state to appear at that point in time, then it goes back to a distributed function. The multiverse theory says that all possible states exist simulataneously and that we only see one at a time. This is partially why I believe that we are manifesting our reality by observing it creating fixed states out of a distributed state.

I have observed things in dreams, especially things that have very sharp detail such as text, changing rapidly into different states, unstable almost like you are seeing many, many different states simulataneously. It's not like something that's moving so fast it's blurry, they are sharp and in focus, just changing extremely fast. Have often wondered if we are seeing a distributed state of matter.

Would recommend watching the Steven Hawking documentary discussed in the thread. In one part, there is a physicist that does an experiment at the quantum level where the results should be 50% in one direction and 50% in the other. Instead he gets both happening on each try and a really high oscillation rate between the two, reminds me of dreams too because things seem to be oscillating a high frequency if you are able to observe them closely. Fascinating stuff!

As Hawking says, science can not define reality, but provides us with a model of reality that is essentially based on function. It does not provide us absolute definition of what our reality is, rather it lets us predict how it will function. Of course that's very useful at the level of everyday objects, but at the quantum level they don't even know what the rules are or if there are any.
Last edited by lucidinthe sky on 08 Sep 2012 03:24, edited 1 time in total.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

Tarpaulin
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby Tarpaulin » 05 Sep 2012 01:11

So.....all possibilities exist simultaneously either as possibilities or as alternate universes. Our consciousness is moving between these possibilities/alternates and through movement is creating an impression of linear time and cause/effect progression.

It's like a movie - a movie is actually a series of still shots and it's just the rapid movement from one to another which gives the illusion of continuity.

The difference would be that a movie is a linear progression of still shots whereas in the above schema where all possibilities exist there would be an infinite series of still shots fanning out from every other still shot.

Our consciousness moves from still shot to still shot, each time choosing one possibility among an infinite number. theoretically there is no reason why our consciousness should not move from a still shot in which we experience ourselves as Joe Blogs reading this forum post on 9/4/2012 to a still shot in which we experience ourselves as Tutankamun in Ancient Egypt. the only reason we move to another still shot which is almost the same as the last (Joe Blogs looking up from the computer and scratching his head) is because: (1) We believe in external cause effect and therefore that such a thing would be impossible, and (2) Our thoughts, emotions and beliefs are so engaged with the current still shot that we automatically move to one which is almost identical.

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Ryan
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Re: Is Lucid Dreaming Just The first Step?

Postby Ryan » 06 Sep 2012 01:30

Tarpaulin wrote:Hi All,

I just had my second lucid dream and the following occurred to me.

We are not lucid in regular dreams because we simply accept the dream reality as "real". we move around in it, do not question it and follow its logic. the progression of events and the context all seem normal. We are as it were "sleepwalking" through our dreams. Then we question that 'reality" and we become lucid and empowered.

In waking life we never question reality. We accept it as "real". We move around in it, do not question it and follow its logic. Could it be that we are "sleepwalking" through waking life? Could it be that we are not "lucid" and that waking reality is very much different to what we unquestionably accept?

could it be that achieving lucidity in the dream state is the first step to achieving lucidity in the waking state? If so.......what is waiting for us to discover in the waking world?

Comments on this very welcome.

HA! Dude, you're opening a big can of "thought worms" for yourself.
I opened this very can not too long ago, and my reality has changed completely. :)

Welcome to the club. From what I've found, there's a small membership. LOL

You've taken the first step by figuring out this question to ask... now comes the fun part: the conclusions you'll derive from this concept/idea. hehe

Tarpaulin wrote:So.....all possibilities exist simultaneously either as possibilities or as alternate universes. Our consciousness is moving between these possibilities/alternates and through movement is creating an impression of linear time and cause/effect progression.

It's like a movie - a movie is actually a series of still shots and it's just the rapid movement from one to another which gives the illusion of continuity.

The difference would be that a movie is a linear progression of still shots whereas in the above schema where all possibilities exist there would be an infinite series of still shots fanning out from every other still shot.

Our consciousness moves from still shot to still shot, each time choosing one possibility among an infinite number. theoretically there is no reason why our consciousness should not move from a still shot in which we experience ourselves as Joe Blogs reading this forum post on 9/4/2012 to a still shot in which we experience ourselves as Tutankamun in Ancient Egypt. the only reason we move to another still shot which is almost the same as the last (Joe Blogs looking up from the computer and scratching his head) is because: (1) We believe in external cause effect and therefore that such a thing would be impossible, and (2) Our thoughts, emotions and beliefs are so engaged with the current still shot that we automatically move to one which is almost identical.

I've learned one thing in regards to this... don't over think it... don't over guess it...

It is what it is... just let it be and don't do more than consider things. You'll only hurt your head. :)
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