Won't this prove astral projection?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
Tarquin
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Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Tarquin » 09 Jul 2012 13:32

Hi,

I made an account just to ask this question. This is mainly aimed for Rebecca, but anyone, of course, can answer or test this out themselves. I just read Rebecca's view on astral projection, and to clarify I have very little experience with it, so I was hesitant to even create this thread. Yet, here I am typing away.

It goes as follows, the spiritual people believe astral projection is entering a spiritual realm, and the lucid dreamers believe it's still a form of lucid dreaming. That's the basis of what I understood from it. Now, I have read a lot about lucid dreaming and astral projection (again, I have minimum experience in both), but what keeps nagging me is that there is a very simple test which you could do to prove whether the two 'states' are actually seperate.

If you've experienced both lucid dreaming and astral projecting (or lucid dreamer pov: OBE) multiple times, you'll know the primary differences (feel, flow, dimensional qualities etc.) that seperate the two. This is key. When you know if you're experiencing a lucid dream or 'astral projection'.

This is the test, and it's very simple. You're in Room A and there is another person in Room B. In Room B, the person has written something on paper, something you could never guess, and has left it open, so that anyone that walks in the room could instantly see it. You having no knowledge of what is written on that paper, go to sleep in Room A. You then go into astral projection (or however you say it), fly into Room B (through the wall), read what is written on the paper, and go back into your body. You wake up, write down what you read, and compare.

Now, if astral projection was another form of lucid dreaming, your subconscious would have made something up and you could draw a conclusion that astral projection or OBE is just another form of dreaming. However, if you knew exactly what was written on the paper without having physically gone into the other room, and after repeating the experiment several times, you could conclude that astral projection is something different than lucid dreaming.

Again, the key is to know precisely whether you are in a dream state or an astral projection state (whether their the same or not). Once you know that with certainty, you can test it.

I still struggle to lucid dream, yet alone have an astral projection. I will definitely attempt this once I have mastered the two, but that will take time. In the mean time I'm very curious to hear what others have to say, and especially Rebecca.

Thank you for reading this, I appreciate it.

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Rebecca
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Rebecca » 09 Jul 2012 23:40

Hi Tarquin

What you've suggested is a very good scientific test of astral projection.

I think it has actually been attempted before, but the results were always hazy. For instance, the volunteer claimed to see the paper in the other room, as they expected, but their "astral vision" was too foggy to read the digits and so the actual data retrieval didn't work. (In unconscious dreams, the language centers of the brain are largely shut down and even struggle to become very active while lucid dreaming.)

Other times, they say they can read the digits, but forgot them upon waking. (This is also common to the dreaming brain which struggles to process memory as efficiently as the waking brain, even when lucid. This is why it's so easy to forget your dreams.)

You may hear anecdotes where the volunteer claimed to successfully read and recall a series of digits in an astral state, but sadly these kinds of results are so far anecdotal and not performed in a controlled scientific setting. There is always the risk of other factors and even a bit of embellishment which can't be accepted as proof.

If such an experiment HAS been successfully performed in controlled conditions, I for one would love to hear about it!! It would literally overhaul what we know about physical reality and perception. So, such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and so far we have not seen any scientifically verifiable (or repeatable) evidence.

(Also I should add that, where people can identify differences between their typical lucid dreams and astral projection experiences.... I believe there are different ways of accessing the lucid dream state, such as false awakenings or WILDs, which give rise to a more intense experience and it can therefore seem a lot different from your "typical" lucid dream.)

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 09 Jul 2012 23:49

I've been conducting experiments of my own and so far it seems that it is all lucid dreaming. Those OOBEs are, in the majority of cases, evident of being WILDs with the illusion of separation from the physical body.

You are better off talking to dream characters and listen out for the interesting things they may say. It can prove more beneficial and be practical in everyday life.
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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 22 Jul 2012 23:33

Rebecca wrote:Hi Tarquin

What you've suggested is a very good scientific test of astral projection.

I think it has actually been attempted before, but the results were always hazy. For instance, the volunteer claimed to see the paper in the other room, as they expected, but their "astral vision" was too foggy to read the digits and so the actual data retrieval didn't work. (In unconscious dreams, the language centers of the brain are largely shut down and even struggle to become very active while lucid dreaming.)

Other times, they say they can read the digits, but forgot them upon waking. (This is also common to the dreaming brain which struggles to process memory as efficiently as the waking brain, even when lucid. This is why it's so easy to forget your dreams.)

You may hear anecdotes where the volunteer claimed to successfully read and recall a series of digits in an astral state, but sadly these kinds of results are so far anecdotal and not performed in a controlled scientific setting. There is always the risk of other factors and even a bit of embellishment which can't be accepted as proof.

If such an experiment HAS been successfully performed in controlled conditions, I for one would love to hear about it!! It would literally overhaul what we know about physical reality and perception. So, such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and so far we have not seen any scientifically verifiable (or repeatable) evidence.

Tests like these are incredibly hard to pull off. This makes providing this kind of proof extremely hard. There aren't enough people good enough at this kind of stuff to provide this kind of "solid" evidence.

I've found that trying to prove the veracity of astral projection/lucid dreaming as "real" to other people is quite beyond the point anyway. Each individual will come about their desire to learn this activity one their own terms and at their own time.

In essence, you can't provide "proof" to the unwilling. Or as the Chinese used to say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." :)

(Also I should add that, where people can identify differences between their typical lucid dreams and astral projection experiences.... I believe there are different ways of accessing the lucid dream state, such as false awakenings or WILDs, which give rise to a more intense experience and it can therefore seem a lot different from your "typical" lucid dream.)

Right! It's all perception and point of view. How you CHOOSE to view it has a huge impact upon WHAT you'll experience and HOW you experience it. :)

This is why I find it's very important when teaching new people to this activity that they don't begin by labeling everything they experience. An experience in the non-physical is just that... an experience in the non-physical.
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benchy
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby benchy » 20 Oct 2012 17:27

I think you all need to read Robert Monroe's books.... he has proved it to be real and documents it in his books in great detail...

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 21 Oct 2012 04:07

His books are a lovely blend of fact and fiction with little between the two at times so prove nothing at all. I have read them and many others and his like most have proven facts that they state but are not released to the wider community to verify.
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benchy
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby benchy » 21 Oct 2012 09:23

So did Robert Monroe state his books were a blend of fact and fiction or is that just 'your' opinion

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 21 Oct 2012 10:10

My opinion just like your views are your opinion. Neither you or me are Robert Monroe and so we can only read and make up our own minds.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Snaggle
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Snaggle » 22 Oct 2012 05:24

Ryan some of us follow the evidence and not what we want to believe ;)

To the original poster: I rolled two natural yahtzees in a row, the chance of one is 1,296 to one, the chance of two 1,679,616 does that prove telekinesis is real? I've also won 15 coin flips in a row is that proof? I got a roulette wheel and made being the casino my summer job :twisted:. My father found out about it and made me put both my bankroll and profits on one spin of the wheel- I still remember the look of shock and terror on his face when he was reaching for my money and I told him to look at the wheel :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :D :D :D :D :D None of this is proof in the least for telekinesis.
One needs an objective experiment with a large sample that is then independently confirmed by someone else to prove anything.

OBE can happen while awake either spontaneously or intentionally or in dreams. Monroe did only the dream ones as far as I know, they should be assumed dreams. The awake ones are the only ones to test IMO or the near death ones. The results of the aware study are suppose to be coming out this year and have provide strong evidence for or against the OBE are real question.
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Seachange
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Seachange » 05 Nov 2012 23:07

Anthony Peake has written a good discussion of the research into OBE's, astral projection, remote viewing (The Outer Body Experience) documenting the good and bad about the experiments and suggesting that the reason such experiments don't work is that the person is actually within, on a different plane (although he did think that a couple of them could've been remote viewing). For example, research subjects have claimed to see people in a different town and even said what they were doing and wearing, but there is often something different about the surroundings or the events that don't quite add up. People having an OBE might think they watch themselves below but often there is something in the room that wasn't there. Personally, I doubt you actually travel anywhere, but the possibilities of where you might travel within are limitless. There are a lot of similarities between astral projection and lucid dreaming, but for AP you may not need to be asleep and then wake, just be in a hypnotic state. I'm not sure it matters, really, although it's interesting. I'm also not sure that it matters whether you interpret it spiritually or not - people create their own reality and interpret it according to their own journey.


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