OBE or Lucid Dream?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
scorpia13
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OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby scorpia13 » 12 Dec 2012 03:52

Hi everyone!

I just had a question about OBE's. I am quite new to this, so I was wondering whether you would call my experience a lucid dream or OBE.

Twice (out of 4 times I've lucid dreamed), I felt like I was "double". I could feel my real body and the dream body at the same time. I never manage to actually get up and walk around, since I always wake up after trying to move my head. The other 2 times, I just felt as I do in real life (just one of me, but with oddly shaped arms). All 4 times, the vision is really fuzzy and unclear.

So my question is: when I feel "double" is that an OBE or am I just half-way between reality and a lucid dream?

Thank you in advance!

Snaggle
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Snaggle » 12 Dec 2012 04:07

Pick your poison, many people experiencing OBE while awake experience both bodies at once rather than complete separation from the body. Assuming you were already asleep, you could experiencing something like this in NREM sleep.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

danmc
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby danmc » 13 Dec 2012 02:53

The LD vs. OBE is one of those never ending debates. Here's what I have found in my experience. All my OBEs happen at the top of the dream cycle, usually around 10-15 minutes after falling asleep; whereas the vast majority of my LDs happen at the end of the cycle. As far as LDs, this is probably because for me they tend to happen when in a normal dream I realize I am dreaming, and normal dreams happen in REM near the end of the sleep cycle.

Because the OBEs for me happen at the beginning of the sleep cycle, I am not "out of it" at all. I can partake of that experience and still be aware of data my waking senses are getting. For example, I might be conversing with an entity in the OOB experience and at the same time hear my wife lightly snoring or turning over in bed. I find this insanely distracting as it tends to pull me out of the OBE.

Anyway, the split consciousness thing is common, but can be weird and therefore can make it difficult to remain stable. I've never experienced split consciousness in LDs, which, of course, proves nothing. It would not surprise me to find that it is common for some people to experience that.

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Summerlander » 13 Dec 2012 23:41

Dreaming can occur outside of the REM phase but more often and vividly in it. I do not recognise any distinction between OOBEs and lucid dreams. To me it is all lucid dreaming. If one separates from the body from a waking point and with no perceived lapse in consciousness, then this is a WILD which includes the illusion of exiting the body.

Even a DILD can be deemed to be an "out-of-body experience" in the sense that it is also dissociative. In fact, even ordinary dreams can be thought of as being OOBEs lacking consciousness because they too are dissociative.

The reality of the phenomenon is this: there is no real separation from the body - only the emulation of it in our active imagination in a hybrid state of mind characterised by the Gamma bandwidth of brain activity. When you separate from the body, you are already in a simulated world of your creation. It isn't separation... it is dream separation... dream movement...dream body...dream bed...dream physical body apparently sleeping (sometimes absent)... dream house... dream space... distance... objects... everything. Conclusion: consciously exploring a dream world.

My advice: pick no poison and reflect on what you experience epistemologically.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Peter » 14 Dec 2012 00:06

I tend to think of waking life as an experience in the mind with external impute and an OBE, Lucid Dream and what ever other terms are used as an experience in the mind with internal impute.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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HAGART
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby HAGART » 14 Dec 2012 03:30

scorpia13 wrote:I never manage to actually get up and walk around


You gotta work on that. I am familiar with becoming lucid while in bed and I have to wonder if I am asleep or not because it can seem very real at the time. Just the other day, sometime in the night between dreams, I felt the familiar body vibrations that precede a lucid dream experience. Then it ended and I was still in bed with my eyes closed and wondering if I was asleep or not. This has happened enough times that I know what to do now. I got up and looked around and did a reality check. It didn't take much. I saw my brother laying on the ground nearby and I haven't seen him in a month so I knew immediately! It was very vague however with not much detail and dimly lit. I experimented with various ways to make it more stable and vivid and eventually I was in a vivid lucid dream.

I don't think it is literally 'Out of Body', but it can feel that way at the very beginning because you literally have to get out of the bed were you know you are asleep.

And about a year ago before I became more aquainted with this feeling and more proficient at it, I once did feel like there were 2 of me! As I exhaled through my nose, I felt the 'other me' breathing on my neck behind me. It's a weird sensation and I still wonder why our minds think there are 2 of us sometimes...

Perhaps it is all that we have learned and have come to expect about OBE's that creates the illusion and it actually doesn't have to be that way.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby HAGART » 14 Dec 2012 04:04

HAGART wrote:I felt the familiar body vibrations that precede a lucid dream experience. Then it ended and I was still in bed with my eyes closed and wondering if I was asleep or not.


I wonder what would happen if I keep my eyes closed, but know full well that I am not awake and only in a 'dream bed'? I should try that next time and experiment with that.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

scorpia13
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby scorpia13 » 14 Dec 2012 09:12

Thank you for all your replies! They are informative and helpful.

HAGART: "I wonder what would happen if I keep my eyes closed, but know full well that I am not awake and only in a 'dream bed'? I should try that next time and experiment with that."


I think you just wake up? This is the reason why I can't stay in the dream and I did it the first 2 times I lucid dreamed. I'm not sure if that would be the same for you though since you've had experience before, but please share what you do find when you try it!

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HAGART
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby HAGART » 14 Dec 2012 22:33

scorpia13 wrote:I think you just wake up? This is the reason why I can't stay in the dream and I did it the first 2 times I lucid dreamed. I'm not sure if that would be the same for you though since you've had experience before, but please share what you do find when you try it!


I think I know what would happen and come to think of it it has happened to me before. Without opening my dream eyes and looking around I would instead sense other things with my other senses. But they would be 'dream senses'. That would explain the strange sounds, voices, and entities that pull on my bed sheets and all those other strange sleep paralysis symptoms I have had before without opening my dream eyes. It's all starting to make sense now for me.

If you do wake up, I think it is just a lack of experience in maintaining that state of mind whether your dream eyes are open or not. But with a mind still active and wandering, it will always create some sort of stimulus to sense. And although non-physical it can feel very real.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

danmc
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby danmc » 15 Dec 2012 01:47

Summerlander wrote:there is no real separation from the body - only the emulation of it in our active imagination in a hybrid state of mind characterised by the Gamma bandwidth of brain activity. When you separate from the body, you are already in a simulated world of your creation. It isn't separation... it is dream separation... dream movement...dream body...dream bed...dream physical body apparently sleeping (sometimes absent)... dream house... dream space... distance... objects... everything. Conclusion: consciously exploring a dream world.


What you write is certainly a viable hypothesis, but I don't think it's as nearly conclusive as you seem to suggest. I'm not pre-comitted to any theories and always go with direct experience where I can. If someone is pre-comitted to the idea that consciousness is the result of brain activity, then they have to take your stance by necessity, not by conclusion. We can't, after all, have consciousness "separating" from its source!

White washing it, though, produces two problems. First, further investigation is stifled. That's just bad form. Reminds me of the classical physicist who, before Michelson-Morley, told a student that everything was done and the only real reason to become a physicist was to fill in the details. We all know how that went!

Second, the differences observed in direct experience are lost in the wash. As an example, I offer this. Early on, back in the early to mid-nineties (I realize I am dating myself here, but that's ok ,Im a cheap date), I began exploring these episodes that seemed different from LD. I found a number of things that were repeatable. The most important among these was that there was a a zone I called a buffer zone. Here is how it manifested.

First, I find myself in bed vibrating. This is the sign I can make an exit. When I do, I am, 99.9% of the time, in my bedroom next to my bed. In this situation my vision may or may not be clear. I learned pretty quickly that the best thing to do is get away from my point of origin. Obviously this doesn't mean a distance in space, so maybe we can call it a psychological distance. In any case, it's represented as moving in space. I move out of the bedroom, down the hall, and usually go outside.

Everything is nearly exactly like it is in waking experience. All the same houses are there. All the same cars, etc. I made as careful of observations as I could. Was my neighbor's front door the same color? Yes! Was that tree in the front yard of the guy across the street? Yes! Was that potted plant on my porch there? Yes!

I did this as thoroughly as I could and each time everything was so similar it might as well have been the waking world. Additionally, if I did this at night, it was always night in the projection. If I did this during an afternoon nap, it was always day. Now, none of this means much so far, since we can chalk it up to expectation.

But, I also found that this zone always gave way; that is, no matter what I tried, I could not make it last for very long. Eventually one of two things would happen. I would either find myself back in bed with no loss of consciousness during the transition, or I would transit to yet a third state that was more along the lines of a lucid dream. My familiar house and neighborhood would give way to a completely different experience. I might find myself in an unfamiliar town, or in a forest, or a strange house with other unfamiliar people.

This transition was different than finding myself back in bed. Most of the time I didn't lose consciousness, but sometimes I would, but usually only briefly. Additionally the transition often represented itself metaphorically. I might find myself in a maze. After solving the maze I would then transit to the third state. Or, I might pass out where I was standing,find myself in darkness, but fully conscious. When the darkness cleared I would find myself in the LD like third state. Other times, individuals would appear that would help me make the transition.

Here are some interesting characteristics of the buffer zone:

    1.) The buffer zone was repeatable, I could go there again and again.

    2.) The buffer zone was nearly always the first experience (but didn't have to be, sometimes going straight to the third state).

    3.) The buffer zone was a near perfect representation of waking life.

    4.) The buffer zone was much more difficult to stabilize, hold, and handle than the succeeding third state.

OK, so there's that. This was all early on, before the internet became what it is. I knew no fellow lucid dreamers or read any books that talked about this buffer zone. A number of years later, Robert Bruce came out with his book. I was amazed to find that he talked at length about this buffer zone. He called it the Real Time Zone, but many of the characteristics he discussed were ones I had verified for myself.

How do we explain this? Lucid dreaming is a human capacity. As such, we would expect to find individauls who spontaneously have a lucid dream without knowing such a thing is possible. The literature is chock full of such examples. This is different, though. This is a structure within that capacity that many have come to know. It might be true that most only verified after finding out about it, but my experience shows that doesn't have to be the case.

Anyway, I find it more than a little interesting. Sorry for the super long post!


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