OBE or Lucid Dream?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
danmc
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby danmc » 24 Dec 2012 18:53

Summerlander wrote:You also say that colours have no physical correlate... well, how do you know when we do not yet have full knowledge of all brain interactions? Also, can you look at the hardware inside a computer and identify the colourful picture of a beach? No, you can't. And yet, the software may display it.

Color, like everything else, happens in experience. In dreaming, I have seen colors that I have never experienced in the waking state. Just another bit that makes you go hmmm. I'm not laying it down as something that suggests game over.

Summerlander wrote:I hope I got rid of that question mark for you...

First, if you really know this guy, urge him to do something about his website. Good Lord! He's probably doing it himself, so I have to give him credit, but as a web programmer by trade, it makes me crazy. Very difficult to really find anything. I'd never heard of him until you mentioned him in another post. I downloaded a pdf, but, like so many LD sites, it was all about technique.

As to the quote you pulled, for me it's neither here nor there. Just seems specualtive. If I read it right, he is suggesting that the added length of the optic nerve, or its correlate in whatever physical sense we are talking about, explains why LDs can be so hyper-realistic in comparison. This is a bit like saying that a giraffe has a weaker metabolism than a mouse because the input is so much further away from the digestive system where the action takes place, when, in fact, a mouse has a weak metabolism in comparison to a giraffe. I mean, it's not a bad hypothesis, but it doesn't remove the question mark. I'm still left with hmmm.

Summerlander wrote:It's not a container. We are our brains. Destroy the brain and there is no mind. It is the brain as an organism that minds things. The brain is computerised. That is the only evidence we have. No "self" as an entity has ever been identified inside it.


It looks like we are in agreement that "self" or "ego" has no reality. You can't find it in the brain (I'm interested in how it is you look for it there), and I can't find it in experience except as a concept taken to be true.

Summerlander wrote:And no, there is no soul inside the pineal gland.

There's the word "soul" again. It turns out that it is only you that have used that word, and on numerous occasions, while I have yet to utter it once.

Summerlander wrote:My friend, I never said you are weak-minded, you're saying it

Yes, I put words in your mouth, you never said it (but you were thinking it!). But they are my words, apologies if anyone was misdirected. And, of course, "soul" is yours, not mine.

Summerlander wrote:Whether a person can hold more than two thoughts in their heads or not, what does that prove? What is the point?

The point being that the integration of all the data in experience, whether internal or external, is happening somewhere else, the mind just being part of the data, not the integrator. This recognition is for me a link in the chain, not the chain.

Summerlander wrote:You are all the thoughts that you've had so far.

Who or what is the "you" in this sentence. I take it you don't mean self or ego, since as you indicated above it has no reality.

Summerlander wrote:who understand scientific gobbledygook

Now here's something I can agree with!

The history of science is a history of starting with parts and extrapolating backwards to a whole. It's more than ironic that science insists on a world of parts, but is seeking a whole, unified theory to explain it.

Unfortunately, to make a fair assessment of all the references you keep throwing out at me, I would have to read them all, and then further understand them in terms of the researcher's overall goals and stance, that's just not going to happen. But whether you choose to believe it or not, I've read more than you can shake a stick at. I've given all that up. As I've mentioned, I'm sticking with what is concrete- my own direct experience.

I will say this about what I can glean from the bit you've posted here, and this applies in a general way. I do believe it to be one side of the coin, this "whole from the parts" idea. What science neglects, first because the notion is viewed as suspect, and second because they begin with suspect premises of their own, is the other side of the coin, i.e. the "parts from the whole". I will throw some references out to you, but like me, you probably won't read them, nor do I expect you to. See the mathematical biologist Robert Rosen. See the German zoologist Wolfgang Schad. Above all see the scientific writings of Goethe. Goethe turns the whole scientific method on its head. He eschews theories and instead finds that the phenomenon in itself tells you all you need to know when it comes to seeing the parts in the whole.

Summerlander wrote:But science does not adhere to dogmas, only facts supported by empirical evidence.

I wrote a response here, but I will send back channel as this is getting of topic.

Summerlander wrote:The reason why people say "my thoughts" is because the ego has a tendency to claim that which does not arise from itself as its own.
here are so many factors involved in processes that we are not conscious of which influence decision and yet the ego at the surface reasons, justifies and hijacks responsibility.

I 100% agree with this. See, we're not so far apart. We agree on all kinds of things. I may diverge a little here, because for me the independent ego is merely a concept taken to be true and concepts aren't "things" that have intents and and can do things like claim, reason, or justify.

Summerlander wrote:By the way, I only asked how old you are because it isn't the first time I get 15 year-olds who think they've got it all sussed, but I am glad your age is the reverse.

Whether 15 or 51, what does that matter as long as the substance stands on its own? But I am rather offended that you think I write like a 15 year old in style! I jest. There are a lot of young people on this board, which I think is really awesome. I wish I had a forum like this at 15. I don't even think I knew what a lucid dream was at that age. But let's face it, young people, a period now and again, a separation of paragraphs, a capital letter to start a new thought wouldn't kill you, and it would go a long way in keeping my eyes from bleeding. Now, Get off my lawn!

Summerlander wrote:Now, since we can all agree that in a lucid dream anything can be experienced because the mind is the limit, isn't it feasible that the lucid dream state can realistically emulate the separation of consciousness from the body?

Feasible, certainly, final word, not by any stretch of the imagination. My so-called OBEs have a consistently, and completely different flavor than my LDs. This is NOT definitive, IS "subjective", but still leaves the door open. The length of the optic nerve explaining a fairly exact replica isn't going to cut it for me. My experience and experiments, especially in situ, rather than remembered, are very compelling, even if not always positive, that something besides a LD may be happening. I mean, as long as the categorization is broad enough you can put it all together, we might as well throw the waking state into the mix in your diagram. But I am interested in the details as much as the generals. I abhor white washing. This may be a bent of character, but it is what it is. So, as Peter says, I'll just keep investigating.

Finally,

Summerlander wrote:Here's a question for you: Does a rock have awareness?

No, but, then, neither does a human. In my view awareness isn't something you possess, it's what you ARE. Was that the sound of your cell phone hitting the wall as you shout, "My god, how can anyone believe such tripe!"

Merry Christmas Summerland! And to everyone here, happy holidays!

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Peter
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Peter » 24 Dec 2012 19:34

The young members here have the conviction of youth and that's awesome if you dont let ego get in the way. LOL - they may just be right....

danmc - two links for you, one is an interview on the Lucid dream exchange and re-posted on the main site here and while rather long ventures into some interesting dreams about energy and light and the second is a conversation captured by another dreamer and she sent this to Robert and he placed it in the latest Lucid dream exchange as well.

http://www.dreaminglucid.com/dreamspeak.html Dream Speak - Interview with Peter Maich
http://www.dreaminglucid.com/lde/lde1_3.pdf Energy bodies - A conversation with Peter Maich

Best wishes to all and safe travels is you are on the road this holiday break

Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Summerlander » 25 Dec 2012 11:28

Again, a certain someone didn't read my posts or they'd know why a dream can present hues that are not seen in reality. The anti-scientific stance doesn't help either and some misconceptions there about Goethe, but there you go, I'm enjoying Christmas by the way and have made Santa real enough for my kids. LOL!

I find your age argument a little oxymoronic. On one hand you say there are some awesome 15 year-olds and on the other you feel offended by me thinking that you write like one. Which brings me to the next point. You are now claiming that you can read my thoughts and know how much I've read in a lifetime? Lol!

Ok. I'll leave you with your agnosticism, not a bad stance, but my advice is not to so readily ignore established scientific facts because you'd rather only trust your own experience. Imagine that one day you suffer a chemical imbalance and your brain lies about what is really out there! You'd be isolated.

Think about that and also consider giving credit where credit is due... All those Nobel prizes weren't for nothing. Btw, a site mostly about technique and what's practical can only be doubly useful especially when verified through experience. No room for empty musing such as dreams or experience happening elsewhere other than the brain.

Happy Kwanza! Lol!

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

danmc
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby danmc » 26 Dec 2012 21:39

Summerlander wrote:and some misconceptions there about Goethe

I don't think so. He is the absolute master at seeing the parts in the whole, which was the main point I was making. And while I said he eschews theory, that doesn't mean I am saying he eschews the Newtonian science of his time. He, saw it as one side of the coin.

Summerlander wrote:I find your age argument a little oxymoronic. On one hand you say there are some awesome 15 year-olds and on the other you feel offended by me thinking that you write like one

I said it was awesome that they are here, not that any of them in particular are awesome. I also JESTED I was offended that you think I write like a 15 year old in style, not substance My point being the substance stands on its own, regardless of age, but that doesn't mean I'm above making fun of someone who writes everything like a dang text message!

Summerlander wrote: You are now claiming that you can read my thoughts and know how much I've read in a lifetime?

I tried to find what you were talking about here, but couldn't.

Summerlander wrote:Imagine that one day you suffer a chemical imbalance and your brain lies about what is really out there!

This is probably already true!

Summerlander wrote:Think about that and also consider giving credit where credit is due

I am not anti-science. Would I have put four grueling years into getting a degree in the biological sciences if that was the case? Would I have continued on for years afterwards reading papers, following all the latest findings, etc? I have nothing against the science of thermodynamics. I love a cold beer! I do, however, have serious reservations about just how far a science based on measurement can go when it comes to understanding consciousness. (Also I will indeed send you that response I left out in my last post when I can. It will include some points on this)

Summerlander wrote:Btw, a site mostly about technique and what's practical can only be doubly useful especially when verified through experience.

I have nothing against technique. I found what he was putting forward rather unique in that department, actually. I was looking for a scientific paper on what we were talking about. I just had trouble because the site was a bit confusing to find things.

Summerlander wrote:Happy Kwanza!

Ha!

Also, I keep meaning to ask you. Is your nic "Summerlander" ironic? What's the story behind it, if you don't mind me asking.

danmc
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby danmc » 27 Dec 2012 01:29

The links led to a couple of very interesting reads, thanks. I didn't know you were a famous lucid dreamer. Move over, Swedenborg! ;)

I like reading about other people's adventures. They can put me into the LD feeling even while I'm awake sitting there reading. Just like reading/seeing Summerlander's temple dream the other day, I get this feeling, not anywhere near the intellect, but in the gut. It's a brief falling sensation that has within it that exhilarating feeling that comes when awakening to a lucid expereince.

Your energy experiences did prove to be intriguing as well. I myself haven't had that kind of thing very much. I have had occasions where I encounter shapes and sounds that are full of meaning. They have that quality you describe that is a bit like encountering precursors to concepts or thoughts, a single shape containing a whole concept, for example. I've also encountered objects and DCs that had an inner light, but nothing like the stuff you related in the interviews.

For me, most interesting dream episode you related was this one:

Peter wrote:I was observing these spots and got this rush or sensation of speed. I just went with it, scared but also curious. I was in a tunnel of light and moving at an unbelievable speed along it. There was no sensation of me with a body but I knew it was me being sucked along this tunnel and it seemed to go for a long time but may have only been a few seconds. The color was just pure, there was nothing I had ever seen that even came close to the purity of it. It was more like it was a living form than simply color. After this rush along the tunnel I exploded into a white light, just a massive blast of white light and, I think, along with a good loud bang in my head.

This immediately interested me as I have explored this tunnel, or something like it. I now intentionally encounter it and have had numerous episodes with it. I have a post about how I do that here:http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2888. In fact, I have come to the point where I almost overly rely on using it since it is so effective for me. This may not be a good thing since I am probably limiting myself in terms of a broader set of experiences that you and others seem to possess.

Is this your only encounter? The reason I find this so interesting is that, like the buffer zone I explored and reported in this thread, I now have another experience in which an independent source seems to describe the very same phenomenon with very similar properties. This isn't a scientific experiment (don't go off the rails, Summerlander), but you have to admit it makes you wonder, at least it makes me wonder, just what the heck is really going on. I mean, unless it's of the same nature as a Jungian archetype, it's uncanny that we would independently encounter a similar phenomenon and identify similar properties of that phenomenon if it didn't itself possess a nature "independent" of either of us.

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Peter
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Peter » 27 Dec 2012 06:46

LOL - just got lucky with some people taking an interest in some of my dreams.

I read you post and it seems its an entry style with awareness of the light or as you say heat and then putting yourself there. The putting of your energy and then your awareness following it to the dream if I have it correct is either easy or impossible, the instant of dream entry always amazes me if it is a WILD in some way.
As you say the feeling of awareness from within the dream is almost a fall at the instant of being there and lucid.

That dream you quoted on was a WILD and was a long time ago, I chased that for years and had some similar but not as intense experiences with tunnels. I still get the rushing at times but the tunnels are different and I sometimes seem to be apart of them as much as I travel in or down them. I think over the years you skip some parts as they become familiar or they no longer are as important for getting lucid as they once were. There are times now that getting lucid by WILD is as easy as waking in the morning and other times its still very illusive and just wont happen.

There are a lot of questions about the states and dc's in the dreams as I think we create most of the dc (not all) and expect to see them in some form like us and so that is how they appear and the similar experiences must occur as we are pretty much all similar in nature and its only skill and experience and belief that move us forward and no matter what we are wired the same or close to the same so must have a lot of similar states and dreams.

I am great at knocking almost all belief systems and as I have said a lot I have no need to believe in religion or no need to not believe. I try to stay in no mans land with an open mind and hope this takes me further and If I have similar experience to say someone with deep religious beliefs then its the interpretation that differs not the experience and this gets interesting but can raise hackles in an online post.

I still feel the place of dreaming is in the mind, the energy that creates can come from many sources and the mind or this dreaming space is the next area for a major leap in understanding of "us" in some way. I have had enough encounters with dead friends over the years, some pre-cog and one encounter with a DC which I will post today that raise questions ( I am not even sure what questions :lol: ) but they are oddities beyond the normal dream. In saying this I am seeking to look past the dream so may be creating the likes of the last encounter, I dont know as I dont know the extremes or limits of mind. I do know that there is a creative process that is beyond normal awareness and that we can call this up and use this process or place or being if we put time and effort into seeking an understanding of how to do so. This more than dream content may be the most exciting part for me, to tap into this awareness and see what I can do and find
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Dec 2012 18:37

Hi, danmc, some good points made. I hope you all had a good Xmas and this has been a great debate. I don't the question about where the name "Summerlander" comes from.

When I officially started my practice (I have to put it this way because my first OBEs/LDs happened when I was a little boy) I thought that Monroe had every reason to believe that consciousness was really exiting the body. In fact, at the beginning of my practice my stance was similar to his.

One day I had a profound WILD where I separated into my dream abode and used a mirror portal to find myself in a land that words can barely describe. It was phenomenal and, well, spiritual. It was just the amazing visual information but also the curious sounds of flutes and birds singing. Everything was vibrant and harmonious.

I also saw cottages, well-groomed trees, an amazing river, a rainbow and a golden city. I wondered who lived in the cottages but didnt get a chance to check. When I woke I was disappointed that I could remain there for longer.

At the time I hadn't yet heard of the spiritual planes known as summerlands that some believe in. Then, about two weeks later I came across a book about the afterlife and it contained alleged communications with the dead through mediums. Even at that time I was a little sceptical and always with an inquisitive mind. Then, something struck a cord with me... In th

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Dec 2012 18:59

Sorry, I'm using a phone and it's playing up. What I meant to say above was that I don't mind the question. Apologies for my previous post (look who's typing like a baby now).

To finish the story, something struck a chord with me in that book at the time. The dead were telling their loved ones that they were ok and that they were in a happy place. When asked to describe it they included "cottages", "rainbows", magical "forests" and exquisite architecture. You can imagine my surprise as I knew my own experience could not have been influenced by this material.

This led me to be more open to the astral projection concept as latter chapters of the book began to describe the nice afterlife realms as upper astral planes, plane of colour, or Summerland. When I decided to join a site called Astral Viewers I remembered my spiritual experience and thought that the dreamscape was indeed colourful and summery. So I decided to call myself Summerlander - soon, even some of my friends called me by this name.

However, the more I experienced lucid dreaming the more I found myself resonating with the views of Stephen LaBerge and Michael Raduga.

Despite my current stance, I still refer to that wonderful experience as my "Summerland experience". No harm done there. But I think that more likely than not that summerland was a product of my own mind.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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taniaaust1
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Re: OBE or Lucid Dream?

Postby taniaaust1 » 10 Feb 2013 10:34

From the original posters description I dont think one can really tell what the double is.. just a dream or not. Id classify it as still a dream unless its more clearer on what is going on.

Anyway, the split consciousness thing is common, but can be weird and therefore can make it difficult to remain stable. I've never experienced split consciousness in LDs, which, of course, proves nothing. It would not surprise me to find that it is common for some people to experience that.


I experience some split consciousness in LDs eg may be laying in bed dreaming but at the same time aware of my physical body on the bed and whatever discomfort I have in it at the time. Its annoying as that split awareness thing with my physical body has pulled me out of many LDs.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself


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