What are your religious views?

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What are your religious views?

Deeply religious - I follow a strict religious code and trust my life to a higher authority
22
19%
Somewhat religious - I believe in a higher intelligence watching over us
38
32%
Agnostic - I'm on the fence; you really can't say either way at this time
29
25%
Atheist - I don't believe there is a higher intelligence watching over us
29
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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LucidLeon
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby LucidLeon » 29 Dec 2012 12:13

Jacob wrote:a religion is a set of rules, a code, a list of things to do and not do


That's not quite true. Most religions have the following:

- A belief in some kind of supernatural being,
- A theory about how the world was created,
- Some kind of basic rituals/ceremonies,
- Rules about what is right and wrong, what life and death is, what happens after we die, and some thoughts about mankind and whether or not we have a soul.

That's the absolute basic stuff that almost (putting in an almost there to not generalize) every religion has, so your statement isn't really right. However that may be how you see it, and that's okay, but don't state it as a fact.

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Jacob
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jacob » 30 Dec 2012 01:07

Summerlander wrote:Really? Let me ask you this...

Have you read the Bible, and if so, accepting that the Bible is the word of God (as a Christian), are you familiar with what the lord has to say about people who don't follow him and worship other gods? More importantly, are you familiar with what your God wants you to do when you come across such heretics?

As for choosing the bumpy and dangerous path we currently tread...

I certainly didn't choose it. I didn't choose to be a man, I didn't choose to be born in Portugal, I didn't pick my parents, my genome, the events I'd encounter that would shape me and my life, and I certainly didn't choose to be born. Not much of the free will that He is purported to have bestowed upon mankind, is there?

Thirdly, if His son died to save us, why do we even bother? Finally, where have you been? Adam and Eve were not the first human beings and it has already been proven that the earth is older than what the Bible claims it is. So many loopholes I could go on for eternity...

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Yes, I am familiar with what he wants me to do. He wants me to not argue and to move on.

By the way, free will is not choosing your situation, it is choosing what to do with the situation you are in.

Like I said, I am not going to argue with you, but I will leave you with this thought:

Which one of us can afford to be wrong?

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Jacob
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jacob » 30 Dec 2012 01:14

LucidLeon wrote:
Jacob wrote:a religion is a set of rules, a code, a list of things to do and not do


That's not quite true. Most religions have the following:

- A belief in some kind of supernatural being,
- A theory about how the world was created,
- Some kind of basic rituals/ceremonies,
- Rules about what is right and wrong, what life and death is, what happens after we die, and some thoughts about mankind and whether or not we have a soul.

That's the absolute basic stuff that almost (putting in an almost there to not generalize) every religion has, so your statement isn't really right. However that may be how you see it, and that's okay, but don't state it as a fact.


Ok, I see where you're coming from. Sorry about that. I'm just trying to say that Christianity doesn't require chanting or any other other intense, unnecessary rituals. But yeah, you make a good point. :)

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 30 Dec 2012 04:28

Jacob wrote: Like I said, I am not going to argue with you, but I will leave you with this thought:

Which one of us can afford to be wrong?


Are you implying that being christian is somehow a safer bet because if the non-christian is wrong they are going to hell and if you are wrong then "oh well!"? Just curious, if you believe this I would like to offer you something to think about.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Jacob
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jacob » 31 Dec 2012 17:35

lucidinthe sky wrote:
Jacob wrote: Like I said, I am not going to argue with you, but I will leave you with this thought:

Which one of us can afford to be wrong?


Are you implying that being christian is somehow a safer bet because if the non-christian is wrong they are going to hell and if you are wrong then "oh well!"? Just curious, if you believe this I would like to offer you something to think about.


I am implying that, yes, but I am not saying you are a bad person. If I offended you in any way, then I'm sorry.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 31 Dec 2012 19:16

Jacob wrote:
lucidinthe sky wrote:
Jacob wrote: Like I said, I am not going to argue with you, but I will leave you with this thought:

Which one of us can afford to be wrong?


Are you implying that being christian is somehow a safer bet because if the non-christian is wrong they are going to hell and if you are wrong then "oh well!"? Just curious, if you believe this I would like to offer you something to think about.


I am implying that, yes, but I am not saying you are a bad person. If I offended you in any way, then I'm sorry.

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Don't worry, I'm not offended. Nor do I think people are "good" or "bad". In fact I too used to believe it was safer to believe in the Bible's version of salvation/judgement, etc., but not any more. A lot of these belief systems are based on fear, especially Christianity. Once I overcame my fears, there was no reason to believe it any more.

One thing I agree with Christianity: God never forces us to believe anything against our free will which is very important. But suppose that after this life, our will to choose our beliefs is the overriding prinicipal that determines where we go? Maybe you are helping to create that reality. So, for example you have Christians in a place where only believers in Christ are admitted, the Christian version of "heaven". Those there would naturally accept that all the non-believers went to hell, but maybe in fact they are just somewhere else. This belief-system-driven creation could be kind of like a prison. They know it's "safe" there, and being safe was part of why they are there in the first place. They are surrounded by beings who can reinforce what they believe. They might have doubts or suspect there is something outside of this "heaven", but who wants to leave and risk not being able to come back or being torn up by Satan, or demons or whatever is out there in the "darkness"? I can't imagine finding any support or encouragement there for that kind of thinking.

IMO, If fear is what gets you there, the same fear will be your prison. It's more important to confront and overcome your fears in this life, then to expect to find safety from them in the next.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 04 Jan 2013 16:40

One thing I agree with Christianity: God never forces us to believe anything against our free will which is very important.


I disagree and I'll show you why in this post. This is an erroneous belief based on false assumptions which came about through a cultural religious moderation (born out of our progress in science and reason) which is exactly why I asked Jacob if he, as a Christian, read the Bible. I will get to the details at the end of this post but first I'd like to address something to Jacob about religion, free will and his attitude...

Jacob...

I'm not arguing with you but I am curious as to how you fully endorse the belief in something which is so outdated in the minds of secularists and which remains tenuously hypothetical as far as the annals of science go.

The tenets of religion prevent people from thinking for themselves and take away any sense of free will just with the simple affirmation that God, gods, or divine beings, are watching us, reading our minds and that one day there'll be a judgement.

The subject of free will deserves a thread of its own. We have, however, discussed it here:
http://forum.obe4u.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1061

A lot of people think that we are really the masters of our lives and we get to decide on everything. The truth is that, as Sam Harris (earlier in this thread) pointed out, we have will but it is not free. We make decisions but we have no say on what will be decided. If there was free will we'd be able to predict our future decisions and we wouldn't say things like "I don't know what came over me" which reflect that even the decisions that arise in us have their roots in unconscious mechanisms. Everything is determined by clockwork.

We are clockwork very much effected by the world around it and its various events. Sure, free will seems real, an illusion most of us adhere to (reflected when we use the term in our language) as it is a political convenience and necessary for our current justice system.

But let's take a look at the facts: already, a scientific experiment demonstrated that relevant areas of the brain light up before we even become aware of deciding to move a limb. Either your God is a liar or He doesn't exist!

The simple fact that we move our hands away from a hot pan shows that there is a lot going on unconsciously which does not require thinking and contradicts free will. If we had free will we would know about all the thoughts that we are going to have in the future and how events may affect or influence us so we can prepare in advance. Already you can see that even the act of foreseeing has robbed us of any free will as we are forced to make a choice: to prepare or not prepare. The concept has just shown us that there is no escape in a deterministic universe. You are always forced to make a choice with your very much computerised brain (which stemmed from a particular genome that you did not choose) and this choice is stimulated by prior conditions within your organism which dictate how you feel about the situation at hand.

Like the proverbial good and bad consciences. Which one argues the best case and which one are we going to listen to. The truth is that we have many voices in our brain which reflect processes that we may or may not be aware of. As someone once said: a puppet feels free as long as he loves his strings. And who is pulling the strings? Not the Biblical God I can assure you. It is simple: cause and effect.

Finally, let me just highlight the fact that religions like Islam have influenced young men to blow themselves up and kill others. Their beliefs have brought down the twin towers - an attack on the infidels that the Koran speaks about. And while the goody religious moderates say those fundamentalists are wrong and nothing but terrorists, these "terrorists" think of them as false Muslims who take heed of some Koranic passages but ignore the rest. According to the Koran, the moderate Muslims whom we respect for not having committed any atrocities, will be judged on judgement day. Meanwhile, Allah's warriors, the martyrs who kill infidels, will bypass the judgement day rule and be awarded with the upgrade of immediate access of heaven at death.

The Bible is not so different. It was, for starters, written by men and women who thought that the earth was flat and such primitive and illiterate people also describe a wrathful God, who, paradoxically is described as all merciful and yet He has this to say about people who believe in other gods:

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying; "Let us go and serve other gods", unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

A similar set of rules is found in the Torah of the Hebrew Bible. If you don't worship this God as a Christian, what God do you worship then? He commands you to kill others of different beliefs. He doesn't want you to even give polytheists such as Hindus a chance. Worship the monkey god Hanuman and you are a blasphemer who deserves to die and the ten commandments where killing is concerned won't help you as they do not apply to you. And you must not question Him when He orders you because He is God. You must do it without thinking (notice: where's the free will gone?):

"Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away" - Deuteronomy 13:1

So don't tell me He wants you to ignore these passages and to love everyone and move on... :roll:

In answer to lucidinthesky's quote, according to the Bible, He commands, He orders, and He threatens his followers with hell if they rebel against Him. If that is not forcing I don't know what is. He is a blackmailer as well as a briber when, in so many words, He says to mankind that if you are good you get to go to heaven and escape perdition. Hang on a minute... shouldn't people deserve to go to heaven because they are good and not because they are scared of going to hell? Fear is the common denominator here, folks! Fear is a form of control! Shouldn't people truly deserve heaven because they are pure of heart and full of empathy and not because they look forward to God's reward of happiness for their egos to indulge?

It's synonymous with an adult saying to a child: "be good and you will get sweets, be bad and you'll be punished". Who wants to be punished? Who wants the sweets? What are the reasons behind perpetrating whatever deed and how has the individual's prior history - which he did not pick - impact on his decisions? Already, you have robbed the child of a sense of free will as your words reverberate in his young mind and will certainly influence his behaviour: he will either be bad to spite you and because the bad deed seems more attractive in his mind at the time (and he may be willing to pay the price) plus the fact that he's not much for sweets anyway, or, he will be good because he is scared of punishment after pondering on possible consequences had he chosen to be bad plus he adores sweets.

As we have seen, if you don't pick the stage, you can't possibly have free will. You don't even get to make decisions with what is thrown at you as these decisions arise all by themselves through clockwork for your conscious ego to hijack and 'sell' as its own like a supermarket stamping its own logo on fairtraded products harvested abroad...in 'unconscious land'... You do not choose, you are made to choose. Hence, the idea of Godly punishment already starts to stink and look absurd.

By reading the word of God in belief and faith we are forced to think about it, to focus on it and that will impact on our behaviour throughout our lives as opposed to the atheist or secularist who does not concern himself with such tripe and goes about his business still following the moral code. We don't need religion to be kind to each other if we treat others as we would like to be treated. In fact, as we have seen, the bad of religion outweighs the good and we could certainly do without many of us believing in a God like a child believes in the tooth fairy. Religion can bring about a kind of cruelty already inherent in people but which lies dormant... :twisted:

It also worries me that the "somewhat religious" choice is currently beating the "atheist" one in the poll above when religious moderation in the world has silenced us and prevented the ones who would dare from speaking against religious fundamentalism and fanaticism. The fact that in some Islamic country Muslim police prevented firemen from rescuing a group of girls trapped in a burning building simply because they were not covered with garments according to Koranic law accounts for nothing when such religion is still being widely defended by the moderates.

The girls died, but, in their eyes, better this than having them disgracefully coming out in a manner deemed indecent. This is also the reason why the US government declared war on "terrorism" instead of war on Islam. How could they when in their own country they harbour similar religions starting with Christianity. It would be hypocritical and offensive of them. Still, it doesn't take away from the fact that a war on "terrorism" is nonsensical. The "terrorists" were doing what they believed was right and were moved by their faith.

Imagine that Jared Loughner had succeeded in murdering Gabrielle Giffords, a member of the US Congress. Would it make sense if the government declared war on "murder"? People can be cruel without religion, granted, but, it is as clear as daylight that the root cause of the 9/11 atrocities was a dangerous religion in which many of its adherents believe in the literal word of their holy book. :cry:

Our tolerance is costing us, people. Our tolerance of this type of ignorance and superstition is costing us innocent lives... :(
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 04 Jan 2013 21:00

Summerlander wrote:
One thing I agree with Christianity: God never forces us to believe anything against our free will which is very important.


In answer to lucidinthesky's quote, according to the Bible, He commands, He orders, and He threatens his followers with hell if they rebel against Him. If that is not forcing I don't know what is. He is a blackmailer as well as a briber when, in so many words, He says to mankind that if you are good you get to go to heaven and escape perdition. Hang on a minute... shouldn't people deserve to go to heaven because they are good and not because they are scared of going to hell? Fear is the common denominator here, folks! Fear is a form of control! Shouldn't people truly deserve heaven because they are pure of heart and full of empathy and not because they look forward to God's reward of happiness for their egos to indulge?

It's synonymous with an adult saying to a child: "be good and you will get sweets, be bad and you'll be punished". Who wants to be punished? Who wants the sweets? What are the reasons behind perpetrating whatever deed and how has the individual's prior history - which he did not pick - impact on his decisions? Already, you have robbed the child of a sense of free will as your words reverberate in his young mind and will certainly influence his behaviour: he will either be bad to spite you and because the bad deed seems more attractive in his mind at the time (and he may be willing to pay the price) plus the fact that he's not much for sweets anyway, or, he will be good because he is scared of punishment after pondering on possible consequences had he chosen to be bad plus he adores sweets.


So why aren't you a believer then if you have no free will? I don't get it. Sounds to me like you want to have it both ways. You don't have free will, yet you've chosen an option that clearly has the potential for permanent very negative consequences? You don't believe in it that's why. But then, isn't that a free-will choice?

It's true that religions use fear to manipulate people and get them to follow their religion, but we choose whether to let fear guide our decisions. At one point in my life I did allow myself to be manipulated in that way, but then chose against my fears to not accept that as the truth. Believe me, it was not easy. I reject the idea that I don't have free will and don't exercise it regularly. It's not true for me.

It's true, we make unconscious choices that are effected by all sorts of environmental factors just as other animals do, a lot of these are based on survival. We don't put or hand on the stove, because we experience pain. Pain doesn't take away our ability to choose, otherwise it would impoosible for us to do it. What it does is direct us toward making choices that are increse our chances of surviving. You certainly can;t exercise your free will as a human if you are dead. I believe that humans are also conscious beings and make choices on that level such as I choose not to believe in religions that offer eternal candy in the sky. Humans that have not developed consciousness are less likely to exercise their free will.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 05 Jan 2013 03:36

lucidinthe sky wrote:So why aren't you a believer then if you have no free will? I don't get it. Sounds to me like you want to have it both ways. You don't have free will, yet you've chosen an option that clearly has the potential for permanent very negative consequences? You don't believe in it that's why. But then, isn't that a free-will choice?


Some people have religious backgrounds. Some don't. Some will uphold their religious beliefs for the rest of their lives. Others will promote secularism. Some are born of faith and break away from it. Others seek refuge in faith when their lives don't go as planned.

Ironically enough, I was raised a Catholic. My mother still goes to church every Sunday and still believes in God. My father doesn't. He is a degenerate gambler and I think he is a waste of space. So why then, do my beliefs agree with my father's and not my mother's when she was the one who was good enough to raise me up? Perhaps I've always been that way inclined. Maybe I inherited my father's genes in that respect. Or perhaps the fact that I saw a kid sobbing when told by a nun that he would go to hell for not being baptised prompted me to think for myself as a child.

Even as a kid, I thought that god was being unfair, and mind you, at these schools they teach you that you must not question the ways of God let alone doubt Him. I thought that it wasn't that kid's fault that he wasn't baptised. How could God let him go through such suffering? As I grew older and wiser, I also developed a partial interest in science. It gradually dawned on me what was going on. There was no evidence of God whatsoever. Free will had nothing to do with it. It happened upon me.

In the same fashion, no free will played a role in my choice to reject the notion of free will. This came about through my own analysis of people's arguments for and against it. In the end, I reached my conclusion. The argument against it seemed more convincing and plausible to me. Perhaps if Sam Harris had made a shit argument, I might have been on your side today.

The notion of no free will need not be a negative one either. It surely seems to eradicate the guilt from wrongdoers. But perhaps there are other ways of dealing with wrongdoing through stricter rehabilitation programs. And if this policy proves to be fruitless, then we may still advocate severe punishment using strict laws. Is this immoral if we reject the notion of free will? No. Not if it's going to prevent many individuals from perpetrating crimes. Not if the endorsement and enforcement of firm castigation will make them think twice about their actions.

Note how information has the power to manipulate individuals. Note how their decisions are dictated by what is brought to their knowledge. Brought to their attention. Watch me split this word: at tension; a tension... it will have an effect on you and there is no escape. Note how they are forced to make a choice. Many will be obedient. And there will be those who think they can outsmart the rest, still be outlaws and get away with it. In such cases, their modes of thinking and their arrogance is what makes them break the rules. Not free will. In fact, many break them to spite law enforcers or to prove the naivete of their victims. There is always a reason that runs deep behind a person's actions.

Jared Loughner was a paranoid schizophrenic. He killed because in his mind he believed in something and he had a warped view of the world. Perhaps the Jared of today would not have done it. The Jared of today. But the Jared of yesterday would have done it over and over again if you presented him with the circumstances in which he found himself in every time. If you traded places with him, atom for atom, until you fully adopted his biological make-up, you too would be killing. In fact, you would be him. Likewise, if you traded places with me in the same fashion, you'd become a non-believer of free will too. The same applies to a killer who is perfectly sane. Nobody has free will.

lucidinthe sky wrote:It's true that religions use fear to manipulate people and get them to follow their religion, but we choose whether to let fear guide our decisions. At one point in my life I did allow myself to be manipulated in that way, but then chose against my fears to not accept that as the truth. Believe me, it was not easy. I reject the idea that I don't have free will and don't exercise it regularly. It's not true for me.


My post above is not intended to show that religious people are the worst kind. I meant to show that we can no longer afford to uphold that which is equivalent to what the Greeks have set aside under the "mythology" label such as Zeus, Apollo, Neptune etc. We now know enough to make the sound decision of getting rid of all this hooey.

In saying this, I still maintain that free will had nothing to do with your rejection of religious dogma any more than what it did in my case. A little introspection coupled with a trip to memory lane and you will realise that your decision was circumstantial of the events at the time and unconscious processes. Ask yourself why you allowed yourself to be manipulated for an inordinate period of time before changing your mind and questioning the tenets of your faith. Even more intriguing is this: why did you have that sudden insight that led you to reject your religion at that particular time? If you had free will, why didn't you do it before? Weren't you free to do so? What was missing before that time that did NOT allow you to make that decision? And what seemed so appealing in rejecting religion when you did?

lucidinthe sky wrote:What it does is direct us toward making choices that are increse our chances of surviving.


You see... even you admit the absence of free will. "What it does is direct us toward making choices..." - the phrase tells me that we are not free to choose. Like I said before, there is will, but it is not free. It's directed. In this sense, we understand that the director is not the conscious self, but rather, the unconscious as demonstrated by Libet's basic experiment where an EEG monitors the brain's motor cortex and detects the relevant activity 300 milliseconds before the person feels he has decided to move.

lucidinthe sky wrote:You certainly can;t exercise your free will as a human if you are dead. I believe that humans are also conscious beings and make choices on that level such as I choose not to believe in religions that offer eternal candy in the sky. Humans that have not developed consciousness are less likely to exercise their free will.


All living people possess consciousness and sometimes unconsciousness. The dead are permanently unconscious. We also need to take into consideration that all of us experience different degrees of consciousness depending on our brain states and neuroscientists today attempt to measure it using units like phi. Consider ordinary dreaming where your consciousness is greatly reduced, impairing your ability to distinguish the logical from the illogical along with a possible decrease in your sense of free will. Such states during sleep determine your actions while you dream as your unconscious mind takes charge.

Had you been lucid in a particular dream scene, you might have done things differently - not because you suddenly acquire free will during the lucid state, but because there is a lot more information coming from the activation of mental faculties that strengthen your free will illusion and give you more scope for directed choice. The more information reaches consciousness, the greater the illusion of free will and the greater your memory of waking life becomes which can then be used by the conscious mind as a reference point to make sound decisions. The unconscious still lies at the roots of everything, the lizard brain still plays a role, and none of the decisions brought to light are yours - just made to look like they are in the light of consciousness because that is the only 'place' they can possibly be perceived to emerge. The truth is, however, that they are already existent in one form or another before you become aware of them.

With this, let me leave you with something that Sam Harris said:
"If the laws of nature do not strike most of us as incompatible with free will, that is because we have not imagined how human behaviour would appear if all cause-and-effect relationships were understood."

Thank you for an interesting debate, folks! 8-)

On a different note and more to the topic: those of you who are not sure about what views you should have... read the entire thread, see me shine (because I certainly didn't use free will to post my essays - rather, I felt compelled to feed my ego and to reply to those who opposed me in order to preserve a sense of dignity - see? I felt compelled; no free will) and last but not least: vote for Atheism because I am right and life looks much better from my perspective. Feel free to drink alcohol and have sex with whoever you want without worrying about some "divine" omniscient freak who apparently already knows who will be saved and who is lost but still revels in watching us suffer for his own amusement. Life's short so feel free even if there is no real freedom. There is no God, for godsake! :mrgreen:

ATHEISM RULES!
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Worldenterer1
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Worldenterer1 » 08 Jan 2013 02:43

Jacob wrote:Which one of us can afford to be wrong?


When you and I are both on our deathbeds (assuming that's how our ends will come)

I will look back on a free and enjoyable life. I will have loved my family and friends knowing that I do it because it makes me and them happy. I will look back on all the people I have helped simply because I would hope they do the same for me.

You, on the other hand, will probably be looking back on a life that was strictly regimented life, where you lived each day in fear of dissapointing your creator. You will have probably avoided many potential fun or risky situations because of your faith.


What I believe it comes down to is that we will both be facing nothingness after death. Our brains will both be dead and inoperable, meaning that all sensation whatsoever and the ability to think will be gone. Though neither if us will remember it, our friends will. I might be the guy who was always willing to hang out with his friends, while you might be the one who was always in church, throwing your life to an empty cause.

Don't take this as an insult however. I am not specifically describing how I view you, I am just loosely using you as an example for what many religious people may be like.

All in all, when we're dying. All ill have to lose is my great years of existence. All you'll have to lose are your regimented years of mind slavery. (Once again, just using you inan example that probably has nothing to do with what you are actually like. Nothing personal.)



PS - Christianity says that all who accept Jesus before they die will be let into the realm of heaven. I don't believe in an afterlife, but even if there is one, the thought of living eternally in a place where murderers, thieves, and rapists are also eternally living in peace right alongside me, starts to make hell look pretty inviting...

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