Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go away

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lodestar
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby lodestar » 11 Jan 2013 20:01

I think I've already done something similar to this DEILD, but without the "L" (which is kind of the most important letter of the acronym). I mean I remember being dreaming quite vividly without being lucid, then slowly waking up until I was aware of the fact I was actually waking up. At that point I was able to "daydream" for a few seconds until I felt back asleep, but without being lucid ...

I might have lost some nice opportunities to LD !

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby lucidinthe sky » 12 Jan 2013 04:21

LucidLeon wrote:This really helped for me last night, I was lucid and closed my eyes and everything became black, but I remained focused and determined to keep my lucidity and next thing I knew, I woke up in a vacation house by the sea and continued the dream from there. :D


Glad it helped. I wish I had known this earlier (like a year ago). I've bailed on too many Lds unnecessarily, but now it's been possible to go longer.

Leaves me wondering though: what causes this in the first place?

lodestar wrote:I think I've already done something similar to this DEILD, but without the "L" (which is kind of the most important letter of the acronym). I mean I remember being dreaming quite vividly without being lucid, then slowly waking up until I was aware of the fact I was actually waking up. At that point I was able to "daydream" for a few seconds until I felt back asleep, but without being lucid ...

I might have lost some nice opportunities to LD !


Yes, that might have been a "DEID" so to say. I had an interesting WILD this morning that was basically straight in from being awake, but I had been awake for more than 2 hours before getting in to the dream. Most of that time my mind was just too active, but then started to relax more, and the thoughts started to change to those kind of illusive pre-dream type thoughts even though my mind was still very active. It doesn't need to be completely quiet as I used to think. Then the images started forming, becoming clearer, 3D etc. Then it become a lucid dream. I guess that was just the normal WILD process, but this is the first time I had been awake for so long and still able to get in without losing awareness. At this point in time, I still have to basically get to the stage where I am demanding a lucid dream with all my energy and will in order for it to happen. But it does.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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HAGART
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby HAGART » 13 Jan 2013 01:04

lucidinthe sky wrote:Leaves me wondering though: what causes this in the first place?


I wonder that myself. I have had a lucid dream for about an hour once or twice, but in both cases, I would feel it ending and would have to do everything I can to prolong it or I might just awaken in a false bed and do a reality check and continue lucid dreaming from there. For some reason, most lucid dreams last about 15 minutes before you feel it slipping away. I heard others say this too and don't have evidence to back it up, but in my experience that is the case. But it doesn't mean you have to wake up. You just lose the setting you were in and it changes. Why, I don't know. And it can't be blamed on attention span. It must have something to do with the brain activity and REM dreaming. Even my non lucid dreams that I recall seem to have a drastic scene change every so often and I bet it is about every 15 minutes or so. I think I saw a graph once of the mind dreaming and it goes up and down and when it is up it is in the REM state, but it always comes back down again for a little while before going back up. But it doesn't mean you have to wake up. (Which would explain a lot of my false awakenings I get after a lucid dream. I am still dreaming, but lose my setting and then logically place my self in my 'bed' and 'wake up'. But I'm still dreaming....
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby lucidinthe sky » 13 Jan 2013 06:11

One of the things I like about WILD is that you go in at the beginning of the dream and have the potential of being lucid for the maximum time. So longer LDs are possible.

I wonder if our non-lucid dreams have continous visuals. Maybe they don't, but we don't notice. Maybe a lot of the other sensory input is missing too. Sometimes I think my dreams skip a lot of the details to get to the essence of whatever experience is important.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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HAGART
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby HAGART » 14 Jan 2013 01:35

Knowing my own dreams, I realize that the ones I get in the early hours of sleep tend to be more abstract and without much of the sensations and objects and situations that we experience in real waking life. Some of those dreams after I recall them seem to be just a period of deep hynogogia with images and sounds, but not much form and my mind tends to mull about abstract illogical ideas that are hard to put into words after I wake up and try to record my dream.

But even the most vivid non-lucid dreams I get, which tend to happen in the early hours of the morning and end of sleep cycle, they always have a moment of drastic, and seemingly abrupt change. One moment I was concerned about something inside my house and then I remember being outside climbing trees or whatever. I remember both and know they happened chronologically one just before the other, and yet, what happened in between? I have no recollection of leaving the house.

Perhaps there is a moment of abstract imagery and thought that occurs for a period between them and who knows with certainty how long it ACTUALLY was. Although the two moments seemed like they occurred within seconds of each other, there may have been a whole 5 minute gap between the two and we only THINK that it was just a short period between the memorable dreaming. That is possible because without any memories to fill in that 5 minute gap it would seem like it never existed after we wake up and recall our dreams. I actually disagree and think that a 5 minute gap would change the dream so completely I would know that it was a different dream, but then again.... how can I truly be certain of time when there is no thoughts to remember in that time frame? :shock: <-- my head just exploded again.......

But to bring this back to the original topic, if this can happen in a non-lucid dream, there is no reason why it won't happen when lucid. But since we are aware during that break, we instantly create another scenario and don't enter a 'timeless' phase.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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torakrubik
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby torakrubik » 14 Jan 2013 23:03

HAGART wrote:
Perhaps there is a moment of abstract imagery and thought that occurs for a period between them and who knows with certainty how long it ACTUALLY was. Although the two moments seemed like they occurred within seconds of each other, there may have been a whole 5 minute gap between the two and we only THINK that it was just a short period between the memorable dreaming. That is possible because without any memories to fill in that 5 minute gap it would seem like it never existed after we wake up and recall our dreams. I actually disagree and think that a 5 minute gap would change the dream so completely I would know that it was a different dream, but then again.... how can I truly be certain of time when there is no thoughts to remember in that time frame? :shock: <-- my head just exploded again.......


Time certainly seems to be utterly warped in the dreamworld; I think here we simply forget a 'gap' which bridges these two scenes. The 'gap' doesn't necessarily have to take place in time as we know it, but is simply a block of forgettable hypnogogia that serves to split one scene up from another.
Dreaming is my drug

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HAGART
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby HAGART » 14 Jan 2013 23:32

I personally think that gaps in dreams are just our focus changing and it places us in a different setting such as outside instead of inside because like a daydream we went off on a tangent.

However in a normal night of dreams, although I was unconscious, I know that one dream was separate from the others and there was a timeless gap of 'inactivity' in between. I can sleep for 8 hours but may have only dreamed a vivid, memorable dream for an hour of that if they are all put together.

So I feel that a slight gap in memory of the SAME dream is a result of a tangent thought, BUT how can I honestly prove that there wasn't a period of 'thoughtlessness' that I can't recall? Although it goes against what I think, I am open minded and want to bring it up. (This should be another topic but I don't think Lucid in the Sky will mind....)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby lucidinthe sky » 16 Jan 2013 05:19

HAGART wrote:So I feel that a slight gap in memory of the SAME dream is a result of a tangent thought, BUT how can I honestly prove that there wasn't a period of 'thoughtlessness' that I can't recall? Although it goes against what I think, I am open minded and want to bring it up. (This should be another topic but I don't think Lucid in the Sky will mind....)


I never mind more topics (on this subject anyway :) )

What do you mean by a gap in memory? Is that the memories after you wake up or something during the dream?

I definitely notice gaps in dreams, especially when it comes to sensory input. The memories of non-lucid dream scenes are fairly seemless, but when lucid you see them. I am wondering if dreams are misssing a lot of the sensory data, because the actual sensory data is not needed. Like if no one is watching, what's the point of having detail?

Sorry if that's sounding philosophical, but I think lot of the dream is just instructions like "you are seeing such-and-such person" or "the car you are driving just crashed" here's whatever inputs you need to understand that, but once you do, let's not waste energy, let's move on, no extra stuff. Some of my dreams I am really aware that whatever part of me that makes the dream has a program and a plan, things to "get done". It doesn't waste the resources to provide all of the sensory data, but has a minimalist approach. Once I become lucid, I am looking for more, a lot times the details are there, but sometimes there are a lot of blanks to fill in.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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HAGART
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby HAGART » 23 Jan 2013 04:14

I didn't respond in a while, not because I didn't read this, but frankly I didn't know how to respond or where I was going with this.

Now I know what I was trying to say, and this is regarding purely non-lucid dreams and our own memories trying to piece it all together after we wake up.

When I write in my dream journal, that all the events happened in the same dream, and then draw a line to denote a separation from the other how do I truly know that was accurate if I am just a proverbial bystander witnessing a car crash? (Best example I thought of. What I mean is that police know and I've heard this before, that witnesses to events don't seem to recall all the details the way it actually happened. Our memories are always muddled.) So back to my dream journal, I always draw a line under my notes when I 'KNOW' there is a clear distinction between the two dreams. I may not know how it started or how the other one ended, but I just somehow 'KNOW' that they are not the same dream.

OR DO I? I think that I do.

BUT on the other hand, the other dream that seemed continuous, may have actually been 'interrmisioned' if you will, by a period of sleep, without 'dreaming as we call it' and then we enter the dream again, seemingly without skipping a beat. Maybe there's a lapse in recall after we awaken and we just chalk it up to that without realizing we actually stopped dreaming for 30 minutes or so. BUT WHO WOULD KNOW IF WE WERE IN A DIFFERENT STATE WITHOUT THE CONCEPT OF TIME? It would seem like it didn't happen.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Don't give up on the lucid dream when the visuals go awa

Postby HAGART » 23 Jan 2013 04:43

lucidinthe sky wrote:but I think lot of the dream is just instructions like "you are seeing such-and-such person" or "the car you are driving just crashed" here's whatever inputs you need to understand that


I'm starting to realize this too. The basic 'fabric' of the lucid dream that ties it altogether is the same no matter what. Like a program if you will. (Or the 'fabric' of space.) I put it in quotations because it is just a metaphor for seeing an invisible link between everything. But what ACTUALLY happens is infinite depending upon what you were subconsciously thinking at that time. But when I lucid dream I keep experiencing very similar 'layouts'. And I think it is the very essence of "I" that is creating it and that is why it is very similar all the time. And to go deeper, the sense of self we call, "I", is a dream character created by our subconscious just like the other ones, and....... THIS IS GETTING DEEP! It is all starting to click into place for me....

I only stop because I don't know how to put it into words eloquently. But in a wordless, deep, spiritual level I think we all know this and knew it all along and our conscious selves were just conveniently ignorant to that fact because it would mean that our conscious selves, (you), are just an illusion of your own psyche and to realize it would be the death of consciousness. And it doesn't understand non-existence and cannot handle it! And we are not conscious beings entirely and have many aspects that make us tick.

That was deep, and just had to say it. One day I will put it into words in a more eloquent way to understand.... EVEN FOR MYSELF! (Right now it is just a feeling and idea......) But that's where ideas start!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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