My mind won't be quiet!!!

Discuss lucid dreaming techniques including dream recall, MILD, WILD, meditation and other ways of attaining lucidity in dreams.
KylePK
Posts: 275
Joined: 17 Jan 2012 04:35

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 26 Jan 2013 07:51

So in your opinion then, observing the world as deterministic, what is our purpose? If free will does not exist and we are all fated to the path defined by our unconscious minds, then what is the point or purpose of life?

I am curious to hear what your answer is, regardless whether or not I feel you are correct in your thinking.
Striving to live free and enlightened in every way.

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Peter » 26 Jan 2013 11:08

Not my thread but I had this question in a call this morning and I say there is no purpose - life is a gift so dont forget to enjoy it :D
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3642
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Summerlander » 27 Jan 2013 00:54

Peter wrote:all this physics and quantum physics - I hear it used us much that I have started to listen to all of Richard Feynman's lectures on the subject - all 20 of them and find it interesting. One day I might be able to add to a discussion on that subject but for now all I can do is read as I dont fully understand the topic


I think we're all better off sticking to the topic of a busy mind anyway... :mrgreen:

So in your opinion then, observing the world as deterministic, what is our purpose? If free will does not exist and we are all fated to the path defined by our unconscious minds, then what is the point or purpose of life?


Make one up. Make the most of life while you still can. Try to live a happy life. Just because there is no free will it doesn't mean that we will sit around and do nothing. This would be a dull choice and would only give most of us a sense of wasting time (unless you are a devout Buddhist monk who loves to meditate).

Try to stay in bed for days and see how bored you get. Let your feelings guide you and you reasoning and good sense dictate your actions. Purpose is an anthropological concept. We create so many illusions. In reality, there is no purpose unless you tell yourself that there is one. Be a human being because you can't be anything else. ;)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

KylePK
Posts: 275
Joined: 17 Jan 2012 04:35

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 27 Jan 2013 08:26

I won't be changing the way I live my life, I was just wondering how you see life when you believe that you are in no way in control of your own will or future. Seems like you can't really be too optimistic when truly maintaining that view.
Striving to live free and enlightened in every way.

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3642
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Summerlander » 28 Jan 2013 00:48

As someone once said: a puppet feels free as long as he loves his strings. 8-)

You can always pretend that you are taking control of your life and tell yourself that you're determined. This last part is ambiguous in meaning. Don't confuse determinism with fatalism.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

KylePK
Posts: 275
Joined: 17 Jan 2012 04:35

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 28 Jan 2013 07:21

Fair enough I suppose!
Striving to live free and enlightened in every way.

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3642
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Summerlander » 28 Jan 2013 18:19

Anyway, the "no free will" view isn't that bad. It can help those with a tendency to blame themselves and save them from depression. A deterministic universe will take their guilt away when they make mistakes. They may say that if they could go back in time and do things differently they would.

And it's true, they would indeed be able to change things. But only if they have the present state of mind - the one that has experienced the mistake to know better. You see, the brain changed since their mistake. Their present biology is at an advantage compared to the brain state that manisfested during the past circumstances that led to their behaviour.

But if going back in time meant that they would adopt exactly the same previous brain state, they'd still be ignorant about a proper solution and would end up making exactly the same mistake.

People are absolutely right when they say that they have learned from their mistakes. We are constantly changing and being shaped by our environment. Just this morning I watched a talk show where a bloke had his doubts about being the father to his partner's baby. He couldn't look at the baby until he knew the truth. His sister told him that he should be there for his partner no matter what. His exact words were: "I can't help how I feel..."

Sometimes I notice the evidence of no free will in the language that people use. I'm only pointing this out, KylePK, but you don't have to be a determinist just because I've expressed my views. At the same time there is nothing wrong with pausing one day to think: "hmmm... come to think of it, that Summerlander was right."

I discovered Sam Harris on a Newscientist issue and decided to look into the matter as he had released a book about free will. I can only say that it resonated with me. Had his argument been shit, I'd probably be agreeing with your current view. I subscribe to determinism because of what I have been exposed to. I have no free will. I am an insignificant puppet in a cosmic sea of interacting energy. My ego is mistaken when I believe I deserve credit for an achievement.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Peter » 28 Jan 2013 19:34

The first thought I have when I hear something new and I am not sure about it is "they may be right" and this sets my mind to have a think about it and then make choices (LOL - or think I choose). I find this changes me from making quick emotional reaction that is not useful most of the time
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

User avatar
Summerlander
Posts: 3642
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Summerlander » 28 Jan 2013 21:24

I completely see where you are coming from there! I used to make up my mind straight away as soon as I heard someone express their views. If I didn't like what they were saying, even if they didn't go too deep into it, I'd readily dismiss it. I was young, naive and biased by favoured worldviews.

Gradually I began to develop my inquisitive mind when I started doing a lot of introspection. The aftermath of a meditative session can help as thoughts arise and you become aware of questions that you don't really know the answer to followed by voices of possible answers that you might have heard in the past and even imagined responses from people that you deem intelligent.

These days I tend to question people more. I try to understand how they have arrived at their conclusions. I found that people are more likely to make sound judgements by probing and finding out exactly where opinions are coming from. This way one might find that someone's views were not as unjustified as one might have thought. Or their logic wasn't as flawed. In fact, we can learn a lot from other people this way and we begin to develop an intelligent approach to debates.

There is a tendency for us to impulsively formulate opinions from the emotional brain without giving the neocortex time to digest all the factors involved. Let's face it, nobody feels like unlearning what they thought they knew. It seems like too much of a challenge, almost like it threatens our being. A recent study even suggested that we have evolved to argue and not to be rational at all. But perhaps we are moving towards the rational (or at least I hope so).

I think it is important to be big enough to admit when you are wrong or might be wrong. The problem with this is that sometimes we feel that we are revealing ourselves to be vulnerable to others. This feeling is even worse when we are around egotistical people who see admittance of one's mistakes as a weakness.

In saying that, we can see that lying is a trait formulated by recent layers of the brain as it requires thinking. In contrast, the lizard brain can never be deceptive as it purely follows instinct. You can spot the truth in liars in the first split second of their reaction under questioning. There might be a pause or they might stutter before impulses are filtered through the emotional layer and the thinking brain subsequently disguises the truth as soon as it can. If you miss the first split second of their response they will have succeeded in duping you. You have to be really observant. There are other lying signs they might unconsciously give away.

A person can know more about what is going on in your mind at a specific time than what you might introspectively be aware of.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
HAGART
Posts: 3179
Joined: 05 Jan 2012 21:09
Location: CANADA

Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby HAGART » 28 Jan 2013 22:25

I believe that we think we believe we have free will. And by free will I mean choice. Every choice or decision we make. And let's face it, everyday we make a glagillion-bligillion choices! (fake arbitrary number). But what made us decide? Although hard to imagine, and there are an incalculable number of variables.... it truly does come down to our own brains at that state of mind and period of time, knowing what we knew at the time, ect..... Just because we don't know exactly how, doesn't mean it isn't true. (some thoughts may happen in a nano-second and are very hard to understand with our slow, conscious, methodical mind, but it doesn't mean they don't occur.

But that is just 'choice' and a very simplified root-view of our own minds. What about the external universe? Is it predetermined? Or 'forecastable' like the weather? I believe, YES. It may seem like you can never predict where lightning will strike, and if it will hit you, but it does strike and hit people sometimes. Even as I make this message and have internal choices how to word it, lightening may strike me beyond my control. But could it be predicted? I believe, yes. (lightening is just one example of any freak accident that fate may throw at us beyond our control or beyond choice.)

The only thing that makes 'forecasting the universe' seem so fantastical, and beyond our imagination, is because the number of variables involved that a mind would need to know and calculate it are so innumerous to us. We are not capable of understanding. Everything does happen for a reason and it is not divine, but, instead, it is the immeasurable correlation between all things that makes it all happen.

(I'll bring this topic back to lucid dreaming... although I don't know what may be behind door number 1 or 2 or 3, in the dream. I am always amazed by what my subconscious presents me with after I open it. I made the choice which door to open, but what was behind was new to me and seemingly beyond my control. However, it was not random. What my mind creates is a factor of many thoughts beyond my control. I still have a hard time understanding how my own brain works, but I won't give up.)

Instead of using a puppet analogy I just used a game show analogy.... what if puppets were playing the game show?...... There I go again, I'm feeling pressure building up inside my cranium.... :shock: BOOM! My head exploded! No matter what people think about it, in the end we can just laugh about it.... but somebody will have to clean up my mess.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


Return to “Lucid Dreaming Techniques”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests