Won't this prove astral projection?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 02 Feb 2013 02:17

My friend, you won't find concrete answers anywhere but in the scientific method. To have faith in something unproven is to give up on looking for answers and to delude oneself. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy. In which case... suit yourself. I find it hard to understand that though. I think the more we learn, the better. You only have a computer before you that enables you to have discussions online because of science.
Last edited by Summerlander on 02 Feb 2013 03:43, edited 1 time in total.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 02 Feb 2013 03:21

I'm certainly not knocking science, it's a great system of understanding of the how the physical world functions. I find answers using the scientific method all of time, but I also find answers outside the scientific method too. They are no less valid. I don't feel the need to go back and subject my non-scientific answers to the scientific method just to prove they are correct. Or to prove them to anyone else. Sorry, if that doesn't work for you but try to keep an open mind.

Getting back to the original topic of this discussion: I think it's a fascinating concept that someone could astral project their body and maybe it's possible. I'm open to that possibility and appreciate the constructive conversation about it. So far to my knowlege no one has been able to demonstrate this ability on demand with independent observer present. Would be interested to know if this has been done and also in references. I try to have an open mind, yet be skeptical.

If you want to contribute something constructive to the conversation that's great and I would like to hear it. I'm just tired of hearing the same old science lectures from you, please just state it once and give it rest.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 02 Feb 2013 03:43

If you want to contribute something constructive to the conversation that's great and I would like to hear it. I'm just tired of hearing the same old science lectures from you, please just state it once and give it rest.


My friend, go back a few posts and you will find that Seachanged started talking about quantum physics. You can't pin it all on me. I merely pointed out, in so many words, that things should not be mixed so as to avoid misconceptions in this site. The study of quantum physics is one thing. Belief in astral projection is quite another.

Once again, we cannot mix science with quasi-religious notions found in Neoplatonism, Spiritualism, Theosophy, and the New Age Movement which purport to be feasible with their ad hoc narratives. Such notions are very misleading and mark a departure from veracity.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Errant Soul
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Errant Soul » 02 Feb 2013 16:59

Belief vs. Study = Faith vs. Reason = Creativity vs. Logic = Astral Soul vs. Elemental Body

Stuck at the Gate of Duality, 1 vs. 0. You are still spinning wheels. Start by accepting the Gate as is, and your thinking will transcend along with your dream experiences.

Think like a Paradox, like a Quantum soul would. See where the differences are merely misunderstandings and can coexist.

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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby blackbird » 02 Feb 2013 19:36

I have never left my body, but I think it's possible. I'll only be convinced of it when I experience first hand what Robert Bruce calls the "real time zone", with some of the tests below:

- In her book Less Incomplete, Sandie Gustus writes that a game she likes doing with her students is writing some text on the board of their practice room while they are away, and the students project there from home and tell her at the next session what was written.
- And that one is from me: take a deck of cards. Shuffle it. Put the deck face up on a table, without looking at the card showing on top. Project astrally, read the card, and go back to your body. Write the result (very important step). Check if you are correct. Do this several times (because even a tarot deck doesn't have many cards so there is a significant random chance of success). Overall over the several tests, the success rate of reading the card should be the same as doing it while awake (100% or close to that).

I think there are too many personal beliefs in general about what is an OBE, and what is a lucid dream. I've registered today because this morning I dreamt that I was lucid dreaming, and was critical enough to notice it. Many LDs could be such cases (of dreaming that you LD). I have pretty hard requirements on what is a lucid dream, and I think several dreamers are deceiving themselves.

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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Errant Soul » 02 Feb 2013 20:38

http://www.tarotlore.com/

Try this and read on how calculations are held, it will explain the logic on why shuffling works in producing a near 100% success rate.

Then look at Tarot Cards, which are essentially story cards, so their meanings can vary based on the card deck you use, the Story spread you use, and other external conditions (Daytime, Nightime, Moon Cycles, weather, etc.) This increases the odds of a unique draw or meaning.

Then consider the question you're asking or if its an open reading.

You'll find that not only are the Tarot Cards are effective, they are acting as mirrors or gateways for the astral self. I more think it is an "astral reflection" of the Quantum self inside of us.

I have actually even drawn cards in my own dream that helped me realize I am lucid dreaming. An example of this was a False Awakening that had me trapped while i had the urge to go to the bathroom. None of the Lucid Dreaming techniques form this website helped me wake up.

What I did was draw a card, and saw a card of two Old Dwarves and a building struck by lightning, which inspired me to use a bit more force. So I used a unique technique to myself to get out. I called on the Eye of Paradox, and it snapped me out of my sleep fast.

I have not had a false awakening since. And all of that was done automatically by my astral self.

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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 03 Feb 2013 19:08

I know you posted this several months ago Snaggle, but I haven't really been around much and just saw it now. :)

Snaggle wrote:Ryan some of us follow the evidence and not what we want to believe ;)

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say... probably my fault for not being clear.
Following evidence is definitely much better than "believing" things, no argument there. :)

The problem is how you define "evidence" in regards to a subjective non-physical experience.

What I'm saying is that in the non-physical 'evidence' is based around what someone 'experiences'... and then they relay that 'experience' to others here in the physical. Simply put, you can't have someone else's experience. You use our language best you can in order to convey concepts and ideas to the other person, which that person will then interpret using whatever experiences they've had in order to try to make similarities. Do you see the problem there?

What someone tries to explain to you, especially about something so subjective as a projection (or even a 'dream') becomes impossible to know EXACTLY what the other person is saying about it.

This means the 'evidence' you value so highly isn't really any better than a belief at this point.

You can try to structure your evidence to include something more "physical" (like reading a random number you placed somewhere while you're non-physical), but it still loses veracity due to the non-physical element. This it the big problem with trying to "prove" anything regarding the non-physical... and I'm talking about "proof" as in 100%, guaranteed existence of (aka, without a doubt existing).

The scientific method works relatively well in this physical reality... but in the non-physical, it's beyond useless. lol What you should be deriving your 'opinions' on, in regards to the non-physical, is your own direct experience with the non-physical. Nothing else will be as important "to you". :)

I hope that clarifies what I was attempting to say back in October.

blackbird wrote:I have never left my body, but I think it's possible. I'll only be convinced of it when I experience first hand what Robert Bruce calls the "real time zone", with some of the tests below:

- In her book Less Incomplete, Sandie Gustus writes that a game she likes doing with her students is writing some text on the board of their practice room while they are away, and the students project there from home and tell her at the next session what was written.
- And that one is from me: take a deck of cards. Shuffle it. Put the deck face up on a table, without looking at the card showing on top. Project astrally, read the card, and go back to your body. Write the result (very important step). Check if you are correct. Do this several times (because even a tarot deck doesn't have many cards so there is a significant random chance of success). Overall over the several tests, the success rate of reading the card should be the same as doing it while awake (100% or close to that).

I think there are too many personal beliefs in general about what is an OBE, and what is a lucid dream. I've registered today because this morning I dreamt that I was lucid dreaming, and was critical enough to notice it. Many LDs could be such cases (of dreaming that you LD). I have pretty hard requirements on what is a lucid dream, and I think several dreamers are deceiving themselves.

I hate to say it, blackbird, but you're already setting yourself up for failure. This is the problem with labeling your experiences and trying to have someone else's experience.

What you're saying above is that even if you have a projection (of which you've probably had MANY but you probably refuse to accept them as such), you'll ignore it because it doesn't fall into the neat little box provided by someone else.

Do you not see a fallacy there?

Try going into this without a box to fit things into first. Especially if you have no experience yourself yet. Work on GAINING experience... build your box based upon your own experiences, not the experiences of others. As I said, you're only setting yourself up for frustration and failure doing it that way.

YOUR experiences are what is most important to YOU. :)
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blackbird
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby blackbird » 03 Feb 2013 21:03

Ryan wrote:I hate to say it, blackbird, but you're already setting yourself up for failure.

[...]

Try going into this without a box to fit things into first. Especially if you have no experience yourself yet. Work on GAINING experience... build your box based upon your own experiences, not the experiences of others. As I said, you're only setting yourself up for frustration and failure doing it that way.


Thanks for the feedback. Could you please develop your ideas on that other thread I opened:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3237

Thanks!

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 04 Feb 2013 07:00

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think we are always out of body and that's the natural state. I think the issue is our awareness of being out of body. We are just not always aware of the separation which would probably make our waking life too confusing.

When we do become aware of it, it's quite an amazing experience. In almost all of my lucid dreams I am aware of the fact the sleeping body is in the bed somewhere else which has nothing to do with where "I" (the other part) is. There is an experience of complete separation and of a separate existence. I am in a very real world doing things without my physical body and my physical body is in bed sleeping in a state of paralysis so it can't do anything even if it wanted to. Except of course to breathe and keep it's heart beating.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 04 Feb 2013 07:16

With awareness totally in the mind, is this away from the body or separate from the body?
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


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