Won't this prove astral projection?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 04 Feb 2013 15:43

To me it is all in the brain. The mind can acquire a phase state (around 40 Hz of Gamma bandwidth of brain activity) which compounds REM sleep (where most of your dreaming occurs) and consciousness (referring to waking consciousness and self-awareness). The phenomenon is sometimes called paradoxical sleep in scientific circles.

It is during this hybrid stage that people encounter all sorts of experiences and they call them by many names like lucid dreaming (pragmatic), conscious dreaming (also pragmatic and less of a misnomer), out-of-body experience (accurate only in terms or perception), astral projection (belief-centric interpretation), sleep paralysis hallucinations (movement in phase space desired and ideal), alien abductions (the phase can explain many of them), numinous experiences (again, the phase state is involved here), near-death experiences (the phase is partly involved but not always the case in such traumatic instances), false awakenings (pre-lucid/unrecognised phase) etc.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 04 Feb 2013 20:16

Are we trying to debate proof of astral projection or where astral projection occurs. All forms of aware dreaming is astral projection so no debate there, where we are when we astral project, lucid dream, phase is the sticky one. For me its all in a local space created by our own awareness, in our heads and the same place as all other reality just turned around 180 degrees
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 05 Feb 2013 00:53

lucidinthe sky wrote:Maybe I'm crazy, but I think we are always out of body and that's the natural state. I think the issue is our awareness of being out of body. We are just not always aware of the separation which would probably make our waking life too confusing.

I couldn't agree more.
However, I'd take it one step further... and say that there is no physical, there is no body... it's all virtual.

When we do become aware of it, it's quite an amazing experience. In almost all of my lucid dreams I am aware of the fact the sleeping body is in the bed somewhere else which has nothing to do with where "I" (the other part) is. There is an experience of complete separation and of a separate existence. I am in a very real world doing things without my physical body and my physical body is in bed sleeping in a state of paralysis so it can't do anything even if it wanted to. Except of course to breathe and keep it's heart beating.

Being aware of more than one reality frame at a time. It's quite amazing.
There's actually no limitation to how many realities you can experience at once... although most people (including myself lol) can't seem to work with more than two... MAYBE three at once.
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 05 Feb 2013 03:13

Sorry in advance for the long post.

Peter wrote:Are we trying to debate proof of astral projection or where astral projection occurs. All forms of aware dreaming is astral projection so no debate there, where we are when we astral project, lucid dream, phase is the sticky one. For me its all in a local space created by our own awareness, in our heads and the same place as all other reality just turned around 180 degrees


I think what you are saying is the debate is not about whether it occurs, but where it occurs. If so I agree and remain a skeptic about astral projection occuring as an interaction with the physical plane, but probably not for the same reason that many others do. I believe it is possible, but very improbable. Our universe functions not on possibilty, but probablity. If someone could astral project into the physical world at will, they could prove it scientifically and people should try and also try to prove it. And teach me too! It would be fantastic.

Ryan wrote:I couldn't agree more. However, I'd take it one step further... and say that there is no physical, there is no body... it's all virtual.


I with you on that. I think what we may be experiencing is the just movement of information. We are processing it and displaying it on the screens of our consciousness. It would we very interesting to find out at the end of it that we never went anywhere, never did anything physically and nothing ever really moved. That would be mind blowing.

As far as "reality" goes, I am really hard pressed to distinguish between my lucid dream world which is definitely a fabrication, and the waking life world which of course we know can be argued either way. I have to look very closely to see the difference. Based on my lucid dreams, I could obviously be tricked. If my dream world simulations were just a little better, there would be no way to tell. The main difference between the two is stability and that could be a function of how many participants there are. I think it's a bit naive on our part to think our senses are so sophisticated that our reality couldn't be virtual without us noticing it.

If humans survive long enough to perfect virtual reality simulations, this will be a common topic of discussion. People will really have to reevaluate that question of "what is real". If you could experience the physical world reality so exactly that you couldn't tell the difference, what would be the difference? You could argue: But of course there is a difference, one is real and one is not. Yes that's true, but how would it matter if you couldn't tell the difference? We don't have to imagine what this would be like because we have experienced it in lucid dreams. So much of the time in my lucid dreams I'm thinking to myself: How can this be happening? This can't be happening, but it IS happening. All of this world is real, it's really solid, it has three dimensions, gravity, everything. Let me touch it for the hundreth time to make sure.

I've been realizing lately in my dreams that there is often a lot of sensory information that is just missing. There is enough information for me to establish what is going on, but details are often just left out. It's only when I'm lucid that I really pay attention to detail, and most people have experienced the closer you look, the harder it is to see the detail.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 05 Feb 2013 08:18

I think what you are saying is the debate is not about whether it occurs, but where it occurs.

That is correct, for me if i could astral project to the waking world I would find a non-believer and scare them or break something, I would do it in my own house first. Why bother with trying to get some reading on a lab meter when I would simply make the thing blow up or break the table it is sitting on. It would be so easy to do this if that's where we go and if not then I really dont see what the debate is about. Its feels as pointless as asking where do we think.

The reality of a lucid dream is only balanced by the fact that I dont need a sim to dream as I can do so easily in the void or in a other abstract states so I think its get more real in one respect as we get more skilled and paint a better sim but that's on one creation of the dream space.

As for waking reality its the meat body that provides the ultimate experience, that is the holder of our senses and our interface, take something away like sight or smell or hearing and I expect it will be a different experience so the body is the ultimate sim tool.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

dreamer7
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby dreamer7 » 05 Feb 2013 14:32

here is a way to tell if u are having an OBE or lucid dream

if u cannot move anything that is in the physical world
if u have 360 degree vision
if the people in the physical world u see do not notice u
if u have a silver cord attached to u

if u answer all these with Yes it is very likely u had an OBE in the Real Time Zone and not a dream.

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Summerlander
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 06 Feb 2013 00:25

Nah, that doesn't cut it. The reason being that a lucid dream can emulate all of the above. There is no real time zone. If you affirm with absolute certainty that there is and you are eager to convince everyone then it should be easily demonstrable. Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes. If the text changes then you can be sure that you are just having a WILD (which is what I think OOBEs are).

Also, to whoever said it's all virtual, I'm sorry to break it to you but "virtual" only goes as far as the perception in your mind. What objectively exists is governed by physical laws that do not depend upon one being dead or alive, conscious or unconscious. If it is governed by physical laws, it is physical. Simple as! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 06 Feb 2013 02:24

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes.


I dont think that reading txt proves anything as it will change unless I ask it to be stable but this most likely me creating the txt a second time not the first lot of txt remaining in a stable state. LOL - this just gets more and more twisted
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 06 Feb 2013 18:29

Summerlander wrote: Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?


I am also skeptical that someone could do this at will, but If I could do it I would invite every skeptic I could think of and demonstrate the ability. Of course. If it is possible, someone who can do it should be able to demonstrate the ability. So let's suppose we set up an experiment. A known skeptic puts a number between 1 and 1,000,000,000 into a sealed envelope and then asks the person who has the ability to tell them what the number is. So let's suppose the person could actually do it and they come up with correct number, then they do it 3 more times.

Wonder how many people would still say, "Oh you know that could have been a coincidence." or "O.K. he or she did it but we don't understand how so there is still no proof" or "How do we know it isn't some kind of trick?" etc. The reason why, it would threaten their belief system because their minds are already made up.

We should keep trying to prove things that there is no proof or scientific evidence for yet. I believe that life exists outside of planet Earth, but there is currently no scientifc evidence to support my belief. So does that mean we stop looking? Hell no.

How can we make new discoveries if we only consider the body of scientific evidence that currently exists? Currently science is not able to measure to consciousness, but maybe someday it will. Remember that there was a time when things like temperature, atmospheric pressure, radiation and a lot more were not measurable by science. Did they not exist then? There were probably people saying that's not possible so let's not even try. We all know that rockets can't go to the moon, right. Be a skeptic, that's good. But be open, your brain won't fall out. Be open to the possibilities and keep the experiments going! Remember the words of Einstein. “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 06 Feb 2013 19:15

I dont think that anyone with a scientific bias is saying it cant be proven just that as of now it isn't proven so that is open minded.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


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