Is consensual reality really consensual?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
TheDoctor
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Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby TheDoctor » 22 Nov 2012 15:57

Okay, let me wax a little philosophical.

Is consensual reality really consensual? I think we all know what we think we mean by consensual reality. If you walk into a room and there is a pig with wings hovering near the ceiling, you might wonder if you are the only one who sees it. If everyone else in the room says, "Pig? What pig?" you might conclude you are hallucinating.

And if everyone else agrees that the pig is there, you might decide that something bizarre is happening.

Or, you might decide you are dreaming. In other words, all of those people in the room who affirmed your pig are constructs of your imagination. They themselves are not part of "consensual reality."

But isn't that the way it always is? Even when we are really truly positively certain we are awake? Do we have direct experiences of someone else's consciousness? Or do we only have our own consciousness to go by, and its affirmation that -yes, there is a room, and yes- there are other people in it and yes- they all say they either do or do not see the pig?

And now, suppose, your spouse sees the pig, and you in-laws do not? Now what? And among those who see the pig, there is disagreement as to the colour of the pig? Now, what's happening?

So, if you are in a state of sleep paralysis and you see an angel at the foot of your bed, you know you are the only one seeing the angel. Is the angel real, or not?

What we are asking, is this. Is somewhere in or outside of the universe an angel speaking to its friends and saying, "I had a really weird experience today. I was standing at the edge of someone's bed...."

However, there is a kabalistic (qablistic? kabbalistic? Pick your spelling. It's like Hanukkah.) notion that your thoughts create angels. Bizarre notion? Ummmn, yeah. Kind of hard to swallow? Ummmn, yeah.

Of course, in the physical realm, it happens all the time. Rebecca just created in September a conscious entity through her actions. That doesn't seem so odd, because we are all used to people having babies. But is it so different? Or any less wonderful?

So, is the either-or-ness with which we approach the question of reality the correct approach. When we have a paranormal experience, we are tempted to ask, "Did that REALLY happen, or did I JUST imagine it?"

It's that pesky word "just" that deflates the miraculous.

Your thoughts on all of this would be appreciated.

The Doctor.

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neuralswarm
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby neuralswarm » 22 Nov 2012 21:36

Hello The Doctor,

As far as I can tell, the only thing you can be certain of is that you are having an experience. You can say you're not hallucinating, but there's no way to be sure. Like you said, everyone around you could be part of your imagination. They also could be playing a trick on you, like with the Emperor's new clothes, where everyone said he was wearing clothes except the child who admitted he wasn't.

So the only thing you can know for sure is that someone somewhere is having an experience. Everything else is just a tendency to believe it's real because it worked a certain way in the past. For instance, if you see a dog and you know you can pet dogs, you will assume you can pet this dog, even though it might be an optical illusion or a hallucination.

Whether something is "really real" seems like an unsolvable mystery to me. My answer is that to be "real" the thing will change how you think and feel and act, even if it is only in your personal reality. I've been watching a show called Dennou Coil about a bunch of kids wearing augmented reality glasses. Basically they see a virtual world with dogs and pets that live in the real world. It's a really cool idea. Google just came out with a game called Ingress that is similar to this, where you see virtual objects overlaid on the real world: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/507681/google-game-could-be-augmented-realitys-first-killer-app/

Hope these are some interesting ideas!
Lucid dreaming is like candy for the mind.

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torakrubik
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby torakrubik » 22 Nov 2012 22:26

That's some serious food for thought The Doctor! My view on this is: given that an individual cannot experience another's experiences, for want of a better word, there is no way to tell what is 'real' and what is not. The intricacies of the subjectivity of these experiences makes it near enough impossible to say for sure who is experiencing something, and how it is being experienced.
Dreaming is my drug

TheDoctor
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby TheDoctor » 22 Nov 2012 23:21

Thank you, torakrubik and neuralswarm.

Something I like to write is this:

Subjectivity is in the I of the beholder

Cheers!

The Doctor

Snaggle
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby Snaggle » 24 Nov 2012 06:55

Hallucinations reveal themselves my not being consistent with reality either when they commence or when they terminate. In the case of your flying pig whether seen just by yourself or by you and a group it would leave signs of it's reality both at the site and the surrounding neighborhood. It's the presence of those signs which confirms the reality of the pig, as does you and your fellow views being in their right minds as opposed to drunk or very tired or just having woke up.

Group hallucinations also happen and not just to a few people, but seen by thousands. It's not uncommon for Gods or angels to appear at battlefields, but did any of them leave signs of their real presence? Or to give a modern and specific example, thousands of people say the miracle of the sun at Fatima, but is there any sign that the sun really stopped- no!

The reality of anything is proven by it being tested or demonstrated to be true. Subjectivism whether of matter or the mind is irrational. We are material, forced by that circumstance to seek our material advantage. To pretend otherwise is crazy and leads to material ruin, in contrast to seek our material benefit we both must acknowledge the reality of mater and it's knowability. The same is true of the mind, one must acknowledge both it's reality and it's knowability, that it is subject to laws and what is psychologically/ mentally beneficial can be discovered and that one may transform at least oneself.
"There is only one God and his name is Death.
And there is only one thing we say to death "not today"
- Syrio Forel

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fyreflower
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby fyreflower » 06 Feb 2013 05:17

I am new to this forum, but not new to the world of lucid dreaming. I am long past the point of wondering what's real and what's not. A man once told me: "The only thing we have that is ours and ours alone is our prospective". I always appreciate this statement when I have a hard time relating to someone--which isn't often.

In this forum I immediately find that I am able to relate on various levels with many of you (thank you for that). I like what you wrote, and it brought back "mutual dream" memories. There were times when I had mutual dreams that were verbally confirmed the next day. Other times I woke knowing that I had had a mutual dream, but only had my word for it, and it was with complete strangers. I still wonder how the place I flew to/met up with the strangers looked to them.

Although, I don't bother with questioning what is real or what is not, but there are always things I am going to whimsically wonder about like: "did the person I am sleeping next to just see me levitate a few inches off the bed?", "Am I ever going to be able to fly like that in this realm people call reality?", and "Is anyone ever going to notice my dope technique?". The last one was kind of a joke, but when I fly in a non-lucid state I often can be heard shouting "Are you seeing this! I can do this anytime I want, and you can too!".
~ Horizontal Enlightenment ~

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Ryan
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby Ryan » 09 Feb 2013 22:44

fyreflower wrote:I am new to this forum, but not new to the world of lucid dreaming. I am long past the point of wondering what's real and what's not. A man once told me: "The only thing we have that is ours and ours alone is our prospective". I always appreciate this statement when I have a hard time relating to someone--which isn't often.

In this forum I immediately find that I am able to relate on various levels with many of you (thank you for that). I like what you wrote, and it brought back "mutual dream" memories. There were times when I had mutual dreams that were verbally confirmed the next day. Other times I woke knowing that I had had a mutual dream, but only had my word for it, and it was with complete strangers. I still wonder how the place I flew to/met up with the strangers looked to them.

Although, I don't bother with questioning what is real or what is not, but there are always things I am going to whimsically wonder about like: "did the person I am sleeping next to just see me levitate a few inches off the bed?", "Am I ever going to be able to fly like that in this realm people call reality?", and "Is anyone ever going to notice my dope technique?". The last one was kind of a joke, but when I fly in a non-lucid state I often can be heard shouting "Are you seeing this! I can do this anytime I want, and you can too!".

I don't really have much to add...
I just wanted to say that you have a beautiful outlook on this subject. :)
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taniaaust1
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby taniaaust1 » 10 Feb 2013 06:57

Reality is just what each individual believes!!

Two people Ive found can have EXACTLY the same experience but both percieve it entirely differently, thou they may of shared the same experience, one still could view it as real while the other may view it as a "group hallunication we had". There is many different reasons why the human mind doesnt believe what one has actually experienced.

I'll share a true story of something (and I dont care who believes it and who doesnt.. that depends on YOUR reality and hence what you are willing to think as being real). My sister and I were on holiday and there was a small group of people (older teens) heading towards us. One of them started morphing.. and suddenly we could see he was reptilian. Weirdly none of his friends seemed to notice his morph and continued chatting together, within a few seconds this group had walked right past us.. not paying any attention that we'd both suddenly just stopped. My sister..she freaked (her nails went digger deep into my arms as she was so scared at what she just seen. I had to prise her hands off of me..she hurt).

Kind of funny for me thou as I knew what i'd just seen and wasnt worried about it at all, I've had many strange experiences before but my sister.. well she's a strict Christian and people are not supposed to go and morph in front of you into Reptilians... to my dear Christain sister.. what she had just experienced was a "demon". She believe her experience at first but over a short time went into a denial state.. and then started on the rare occcassions it would come up.. would then say it was a "mutual halluncination" we both had. (mind u neither of us take drugs or drink). She wasnt willing to believe what she experienced..so reality become unreality for her.

Its taken over 10 years and I think she's back to believing a bit of what she saw was real.. that's only cause she came across at someones house one day a book on the reptilians sitting on them table and realised right away that is what she'd saw. I guess she needed the "support" of others not just myself, sharing the same experience before she was willing to once again believe it wasnt a halluncination. So yeah..people do base their realities on what "others" are experiencing too. Its like a big group consciousness is set up out there... if you fit in with it.. your experience is viewed as real.. if it dont..well it then is viewed as not real.

I myself dont care for "group" consciousness and what it thinks.. I like to base my reality on what I myself think and feel. (I think that allows me to have many experiences most others dont).

Then there is my story about what I experienced the opposite to the one Ive already told... when a group of people turn what isnt even real into something which is real to them. I used to go to a UFO group.. and one day the group sent a night on a beach out trying to spot UFOs.. by the end of the night most of the group were thinkign every satilite they say was a UFO and getting all excited about it. They were JUST satilletes going by thou!!! well in my reality they were.. in many of the others, they were UFOs lol. They were sooo ungrounded..and being influenced by each others thoughts. *Note ..I wasnt thinking they werent real due to not believing as in fact i do believe in UFOS as Ive seen them more then once. Logic should be used too when determining what is real and what isnt real!! eg if youve been smoking heavy drugs and you start experencing weird stuff.. its logical to say it probably wasnt real! If something looks like a satilite.. it probably is a satilite :)

Maybe reality is best viewed on what YOU YOURSELF think and experience without letting thigns like fear dominate (which will change your reality and have a person blocking things out) or letting others emotional views influence. Emotions alter ones reality and when emotions happen in a group, that's an even stronger effect. A little child having night terrors in a dream...will often think it was real and start looking for it under the bed, some adults even have that reaction to a dream. haha
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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fyreflower
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Re: Is consensual reality really consensual?

Postby fyreflower » 10 Feb 2013 22:14

"I don't really have much to add...
I just wanted to say that you have a beautiful outlook on this subject."


Thank you Ryan :D
~ Horizontal Enlightenment ~


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