Won't this prove astral projection?

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 06 Feb 2013 20:15

Peter wrote:I dont think that anyone with a scientific bias is saying it cant be proven just that as of now it isn't proven so that is open minded.


I hope you are right, but it doesn't look that way to me. I think it's pretty obvious that a discussion concerning a subject such as "astral travelling" has really nothing at all to do with science (at least currently). And as for the general topic of "paranormal activity", do you know of any sciences called "paranormal" anything? So then please enlighten me as to why we need to keep interjecting the same argument that astral projection or any other "paranormal activity" is not scientific, has not been proven, is all in our mind, etc. etc. ad infinitum. How many times is it necessary to hear that? Or is the real purpose of that an attempt to suppress the discussion and attempt to make people feel ignorant, stupid, uneducated, etc. so that they are intimidated? That looks more like the truth to me. Why do people who have no interest in making positive contributions to a discussion like to "hang-out" in topics where they have no real interest?

I would prefer to discuss the topic based on ideas, proven or unproven so that I have the chance to decide for myself without constantly being told what is "right". As for now I am just ignoring it, but hope others will be able to as well. The last thing most of us want, is to intimidate people into not expressing their opinions. What we will end up with is a monoculture of the same opinion and even it's it one that some people agree with it will do this forum a disservice.
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erichsa
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby erichsa » 06 Feb 2013 21:19

I agree, but there are people who think," I know i am right, but there are still people who believe in god ." I posted a bit back, !Yes- But! Yes believe in my view, I do with a But "This is how I understand it now,but it can change as it has done often in my long life." Don't cling to an opinion or view. Remember from the earth being flat,came the sun went around the earth,which was then the centre of the universe, by now we know a bit more,and that is our present knowledge. There is plenty more to come.Please we should not try and force what we think onto others,but let it being known that this is only your view,and no dogma. OK Erich Yes-But :lol:

How about a break?
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Last edited by erichsa on 06 Feb 2013 23:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Peter
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Peter » 06 Feb 2013 23:22

The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed. I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where.
Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast.

I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.

For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on.
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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 07 Feb 2013 04:06

dreamer7 wrote:here is a way to tell if u are having an OBE or lucid dream

if u cannot move anything that is in the physical world
if u have 360 degree vision
if the people in the physical world u see do not notice u
if u have a silver cord attached to u

if u answer all these with Yes it is very likely u had an OBE in the Real Time Zone and not a dream.

Actually, those are very limiting definitions.

None of those four items are exclusive to a "Projection". You COULD experience those... you could also never experience them. They're not the defining factors for what you arbitrarily label an experience.
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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 07 Feb 2013 04:10

Peter wrote:The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed. I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where.
Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast.

I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.

Pretty much.

We're trying to discuss and define the undiscussable... and the undefinable. lol

For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on.
What is required is for opposing views to be stated and not the viewers condemned directly or indirectly for their posts.

"Share experiences". Definitely.
Especially direct experiences... for in the end, those are really the only ones that should matter to the person telling the experience.

Personal Experience trumps ANYTHING you'll read in a book or from someone else. :)

That's why I don't get upset or defensive if someone disagrees with me. I KNOW I base my knowledge on what I've directly experienced... nothing can say otherwise.
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 Feb 2013 19:29

Peter wrote: The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed.


It is difficult to explain or understand a lot of what is going on in some of these experiences such as HI, OBE and LD. But it also so fascinating to listen to other people's experiences and compare them to you own. I've learned a lot from doing that so I appreciate reading posts, especially yours. Please continue to post your experiences and ideas.

Peter wrote:I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where. Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast. I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.


Agreed. It's such an incredible world that we are experiencing, it takes so much away from the discussion to have to get into a debate about proving this or that, just because you post an idea. I would love to focus more on just talking about our experiencing and less technical analysis and debate about whose right and wrong. I would encourage everyone who is reading this to as they say "disagree without being disagreeable". Please avoid getting sucked in to these kinds of confrontational argumentative discussions by just ignoring them and not responding. The poster will get the message eventually.

Peter wrote:For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on.
What is required is for opposing views to be stated and not the viewers condemned directly or indirectly for their posts.


Completely agree and well said. I think we should all make every effort to keep this a discussion forum and not a debate forum. Not that we aren't allowed to disagree, but when we do, just make your point and move on and try to it constructively and without making it personal.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby dreamer7 » 08 Feb 2013 08:32

Summerlander wrote:Nah, that doesn't cut it. The reason being that a lucid dream can emulate all of the above. There is no real time zone. If you affirm with absolute certainty that there is and you are eager to convince everyone then it should be easily demonstrable. Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes. If the text changes then you can be sure that you are just having a WILD (which is what I think OOBEs are).

Also, to whoever said it's all virtual, I'm sorry to break it to you but "virtual" only goes as far as the perception in your mind. What objectively exists is governed by physical laws that do not depend upon one being dead or alive, conscious or unconscious. If it is governed by physical laws, it is physical. Simple as! :mrgreen:


are you able to have lucid dreams at will? NO. its the same with astral projection/obes. except these are even harder than lucid dreams. and yes, with OBEs u can look at text and it will always be the same. if the text changes you are in a lucid dream or astral projection. James Randi Astral Projected, he thinks it was a lucid dream but No he is wrong. AP and OBEs are different. AP can look like the real world but things will appear different or be in different places than usual, OBEs are in the Real Time Zone.

plus, with OBEs in the RTZ u can pull out a friend and go exploring the world together and u will both remember every second. or u can get into an OBE at the same time next to each other and u will see each other plus u also see other OBEers

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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Summerlander » 08 Feb 2013 17:44

All that you said above... prove it! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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taniaaust1
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby taniaaust1 » 10 Feb 2013 06:24

I know that OBEs are not lucid dreams thou it is possible to have an OBE and be lucid dreaming at the same time.

I'll share one of my experiences which is like your test. This happened to me MANY years ago now. One night I had an OBE (I was working on having them at the time) and as usual was floating upwards from my bed. From up by my ceiling I noticed something had been placed on the top of my wardrobe, this got my interest as I'd put nothing there myself. So I floated over to have a close look.

It was a voucher for a certain shop and for a certain amount (I cant remember the exact details now. I think it was a $20 one). When I got back in my body I got up to have a real look excited as I knew this may be the 100% confirmation I'd always wanted to have about my the OBES Id started recently having. (at this point of my OBE experiences I was still usualy getting stuck in my bedroom if the door was shut as I wasnt getting throu the walls.. iimited by my mind).

Sure enough on the top of my wardrobe in the very spot I'd seen it, there was the voucher and it was EXACTLY the same as I'd read.. for same shop and for the same amount. My boyfriend got angry at me as he thought I must of watched him put it there and read it. I didnt actually even know he had got it, let alone gone and hidden something before this experience.

I only found out AFTER I had this experience that in fact it is highly unusual for someone to be able to read and understand something physically written while OBE. shrugs.. all I can say is it did happen to me and I correctly read the thing. (maybe its the preconceived notions of things which stop people from often achieving this??? I dont know).

Could I have done this if I was told something was there and for me to read it? I dont know. I had no preconcieved notions to upset my views as no one had said anything.. so no guesses of what someone may of written or whatever. Maybe that helped me to correctly read it?
..............

My observation is that there is also different closenesses we can get to physical plane reality when we are OBE. Sometimes we seem to be closer to this physical reality then at other times. I think the closer one is at the time.. the more one can actually interact to the physical reality eg from having another see you astral with their physical eyes (I once saw a photo someone had took of two others this person know who could astral project.. he got them to pose and they showed up on his photo), to being able to move physical objects while in an OBE state (ive done that once too..moved a chair..physical others experienced it move, not on purpose thou..that chair had just been in the very spot I'd been trying to project too rather then being in its normal place..so hence had been in my way). The closer to the physical world I are when Im OBE, the denser that world feels to me..i dont know if its my mind causing it to seem different of due to the fact I are closer at such times eg pushing hand throu wall then hard but can be done.
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Ryan
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Re: Won't this prove astral projection?

Postby Ryan » 10 Feb 2013 08:09

taniaaust1 wrote:I know that OBEs are not lucid dreams thou it is possible to have an OBE and be lucid dreaming at the same time.

Likewise, I know that OBEs and Lucid Dreams are relatively the same thing. :)

Perception and experience?

I know they're the same because I've experienced a dream, changed into a lucid dream, which then changed into an OBE/Astral Projection... all within the same experience, with no break in consciousness and not waking up between them.

It took me a little while after that experience (and I've had many others like it since then), in which I had to throw out everything I thought I knew about projections and then put together my own concepts via my own direct experiences.

My experiences have proven to me that they're all the same experience (dreams, lucid dreams, astral projections, obes, etc..) ... BUT, what differentiates them is the varying levels of conscious awareness during the experience.

I'll share one of my experiences which is like your test. This happened to me MANY years ago now. One night I had an OBE (I was working on having them at the time) and as usual was floating upwards from my bed. From up by my ceiling I noticed something had been placed on the top of my wardrobe, this got my interest as I'd put nothing there myself. So I floated over to have a close look.

...

Could I have done this if I was told something was there and for me to read it? I dont know. I had no preconcieved notions to upset my views as no one had said anything.. so no guesses of what someone may of written or whatever. Maybe that helped me to correctly read it?
..............

My observation is that there is also different closenesses we can get to physical plane reality when we are OBE. Sometimes we seem to be closer to this physical reality then at other times. I think the closer one is at the time.. the more one can actually interact to the physical reality eg from having another see you astral with their physical eyes (I once saw a photo someone had took of two others this person know who could astral project.. he got them to pose and they showed up on his photo), to being able to move physical objects while in an OBE state (ive done that once too..moved a chair..physical others experienced it move, not on purpose thou..that chair had just been in the very spot I'd been trying to project too rather then being in its normal place..so hence had been in my way). The closer to the physical world I are when Im OBE, the denser that world feels to me..i dont know if its my mind causing it to seem different of due to the fact I are closer at such times eg pushing hand throu wall then hard but can be done.

My interpretation of this event is that your boyfriend was thinking about this particular item so much that you subconsciously picked up on it... hence, when you projected, you created it as such.

We're all "consciousness"... so we're all one... we're all intrinsically linked, as such, it makes sense that data from one individual consciousness would be available to another in such a way.

Anyway, there are also loads of other possibilities for the "how" and "why" this occurred. Just chalk it up as a great experience for now... and keep trying for such experiments in the future.

Remember, if this physical reality was as cut and dried as science says it is... things like the placebo effect wouldn't have to be worried about when doing studies. :)
Just some food for thought.
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