What are your religious views?

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What are your religious views?

Deeply religious - I follow a strict religious code and trust my life to a higher authority
22
19%
Somewhat religious - I believe in a higher intelligence watching over us
38
32%
Agnostic - I'm on the fence; you really can't say either way at this time
29
25%
Atheist - I don't believe there is a higher intelligence watching over us
29
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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Worldenterer1
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Worldenterer1 » 15 Feb 2013 04:25

Ryan wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? I mean, how would the universe have existed before humans then? (Assuming it did, which most evidence points too)

What exactly is arrogant about it?

You're thinking too "physical". I theorize that this physical reality would cease to exist if no consciousnesses were to be here creating it. Meaning us.

What happens to the dream when you're no longer experiencing it? Do you think it just continues to chug along happily existing forever? Honestly, it might... but I don't think it does.

I view this physical reality as nothing more than a slightly more stable non-physical reality frame. It's kept stable by the numerous consciousnesses which inhabit it.


I just think it's arrogant to see the whole universe as depending on the human race. All we are really, are animals that are smarter than the other ones. Species have gone extinct before, and someday, humans might too. I hardly think that's any reason for the universe to disappear. Plus, we are not the only species to have consciousness. We are just intelligent enough to utilize it more effectively than other species. You can go and look up studies where scientists prove that some animals understand this kind of stuff by smudging paint on their face, and then putting them in front of a mirror. The animal sees itself in the mirror, and rubs at its face. This proves that the animal understands that it is seeing itself in the mirror and has its own body separate from everything else.
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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 15 Feb 2013 04:56

Worldenterer1 wrote:I just think it's arrogant to see the whole universe as depending on the human race. All we are really, are animals that are smarter than the other ones. Species have gone extinct before, and someday, humans might too. I hardly think that's any reason for the universe to disappear. Plus, we are not the only species to have consciousness. We are just intelligent enough to utilize it more effectively than other species. You can go and look up studies where scientists prove that some animals understand this kind of stuff by smudging paint on their face, and then putting them in front of a mirror. The animal sees itself in the mirror, and rubs at its face. This proves that the animal understands that it is seeing itself in the mirror and has its own body separate from everything else.

You misunderstand what I'm saying...

First, I never said that it depended upon the "human race". I said it requires "consciousnesses" in order to maintain its stability. And yes, as you suggest, animals are "conscious" as well... and they are included in that stability.

Also, "intelligence" has no bearing upon what is labeled to have "consciousness". That fly buzzing around your head during the summer months is as conscious as you are... it's not as "intelligent", but it's consciousness is enough to "create".

And honestly, I don't even know if this is the case... one of many possible scenarios.

Am I making more sense this time? :)
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taniaaust1
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby taniaaust1 » 15 Feb 2013 08:10

Worldenterer1 wrote:Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? I mean, how would the universe have existed before humans then? (Assuming it did, which most evidence points too)



I too believe we are all Gods. When I say that.. I see us as not being "human" as such and hence being around maybe even before this universe existed.

Its not a belief in which I expect all to understand what I believe.

Maybe this world may be a world we are only dreaming.. made up by us .. just like our dreams are made up by us. A world that our waking human selves percieve as they do, just like the DCs think their world is real.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 15 Feb 2013 09:11

taniaaust1 wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? I mean, how would the universe have existed before humans then? (Assuming it did, which most evidence points too)



I too believe we are all Gods. When I say that.. I see us as not being "human" as such and hence being around maybe even before this universe existed.

Its not a belief in which I expect all to understand what I believe.

Maybe this world may be a world we are only dreaming.. made up by us .. just like our dreams are made up by us. A world that our waking human selves percieve as they do, just like the DCs think their world is real.


Intersting belief, what reasons do you have for choosing to believe this?
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Summerlander
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 15 Feb 2013 13:13

Worldenterer1 wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:
Summerlander wrote:I think I've expired my input in this thread.


It has been an honor conversing with you and others! 8-)


I think that's a good idea SL. I think I might be hanging up my rifle soon as well! :)


Join me. :D

There are people like us in the limelight who devote their lives in attempting to wake those who continue to dream and refuse to accept that it is nothing but that.



Also, "intelligence" has no bearing upon what is labeled to have "consciousness". That fly buzzing around your head during the summer months is as conscious as you are... it's not as "intelligent", but it's consciousness is enough to "create"


A fly is not as conscious as a human. A fly's brain only supports around 100,000 cells compared to 100 billion of them in humans. A cockroach will even beat a fly in brain power. But the fact of the matter is... humans are self-aware, insects are not.

Also, although consciousness and intelligence are two different things, the two of them are not orthogonal to each other. To have a certain degree of intelligence requires a certain degree of consciousness. :mrgreen:

If consciousness was omnipresent in the universe, no distinctions between consciousness and unconsciousness would be possible. And scientists wouldn't be devising units of measure like "phi" either.

Another thing: the universe existed prior to consciousness. This is scientific fact. The building blocks of life are already known (see the SPONCH acronym). Mostly, it's carbon based. Carbon is a heavy element that did not exist in the earlier universe and life was certainly not possible. The universe could just as easily not have created life. Life occurred at random and once it started, it developed and natural selection kicked in.

Humans were never as conscious as they are now. To say that consciousness creates this universe is not only arrogant but ignorant too. Consciousness is a byproduct of a universe that evolved into complexity. Just like a planet or star that forms in space and develops its gravity, so is consciousness developed by organisms.

If an asteroid struck the Earth and wiped us all out, the universe would still exist. This is only logical. Well, one need not go that far. A blow to the head can render anyone unconscious. Damage to the brain can seriously impair mental faculties. In fact, all mental properties are subject to expunction via damage to areas of the brain. Even a living thing can become unconscious. Where has consciousness gone then? LOL!

For those interested in sound scientific theories for consciousness, check out the work of Christof Koch and Giulio Tononi integrated information theory:

"...approach is anchored in the principle that there is a minimal set of neuronal mechanisms that are jointly sufficient for a specific conscious percept—the neural correlates of consciousness (NCC). According to this definition, most neurons are not part of the NCC. For example, activity in the retina is correlated with visual consciousness, but is not sufficient to cause it. In fact, most retinal activity never makes it into awareness. In binocular rivalry, activity in early visual cortex (V1) does not predict conscious awareness, whereas activity in higher areas such as inferotemporal (IT) cortex does. Thus, Koch concludes that some neurons in IT are likely to be part of the NCC whereas neurons in the retina or V1 are not. Further, he notes that “large parts of the cerebral cortex can be destroyed without any overall loss of function after recovery” and these are thus not part of the NCC either. The cerebellum, for example, contains more neurons than the human cortex, but its loss does not impair consciousness but rather fine motor movements. On the other hand, a comparatively small bilateral lesion in a particular area of the brainstem leads to irreversible loss of consciousness, leaving the person in a vegetative state."

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-05-02/?gclid=CKjQkvaquLUCFY3LtAodemwAoQ#feature

And there was me thinking that I had expired my input here. Now I believe I have though! :lol:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 15 Feb 2013 21:30

taniaaust1 wrote:I too believe we are all Gods. When I say that.. I see us as not being "human" as such and hence being around maybe even before this universe existed.

Its not a belief in which I expect all to understand what I believe.

Maybe this world may be a world we are only dreaming.. made up by us .. just like our dreams are made up by us. A world that our waking human selves percieve as they do, just like the DCs think their world is real.

As I've said before, I think we have very similar attitudes towards this stuff. ;)


Jack Reacher wrote:Intersting belief, what reasons do you have for choosing to believe this?

For myself, it's not so much a belief... as I mentioned, I don't even know if it's even close to correct. It's more me "thinking outloud". :)

I try to keep an open mind about most things related to this subject. Taking a hard and fast position on anything, unless you know (personal truth is included in this knowing). Some things I have a personal truth regarding, I don't 100% believe them... more like believe-yet remain open to any new information that might cross my path.

I *try* to practice and preach open minded skepticism. :)
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 16 Feb 2013 01:33

I think its wise not only to think about the merits of the idea itself that you are considering, but also the social and realistic reasons as to why you would consider the idea in the first place. For instance for those who think this could be a subspace of reality, that the real world is on another plane and this is all a dream, why lead you to consider the idea? Is it because the alternative isn't so bright, or does it really make inuitive sense to you? Finally with that specific idea in mind I want you to ask yourself, what would you be satisfied with?

Say you were to "awaken" into the real world, what makes you think you would believe its real? What would stop you asking the same thing, so again, what does it take to satisfy yourself? Once you realise this you start taking the journey in a more introverted direction.
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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 16 Feb 2013 01:43

Jack Reacher wrote:I think its wise not only to think about the merits of the idea itself that you are considering, but also the social and realistic reasons as to why you would consider the idea in the first place. For instance for those who think this could be a subspace of reality, that the real world is on another plane and this is all a dream, why lead you to consider the idea? Is it because the alternative isn't so bright, or does it really make inuitive sense to you? Finally with that specific idea in mind I want you to ask yourself, what would you be satisfied with?

Say you were to "awaken" into the real world, what makes you think you would believe its real? What would stop you asking the same thing, so again, what does it take to satisfy yourself? Once you realise this you start taking the journey in a more introverted direction.

Someone asked me a very similar question on my Facebook page. I will just reply with what I told him. :)

Well, from what I've experienced... I have no choice but to at least ask the question, "What is real?", because while experiencing the non-physical, it's anything BUT non-physical. It's as real as this physical experience is. The real answer to your question is "I don't know"... I have theories and ideas about it all, but I truly don't know.

I choose to not "believe" anything really. I'm very open to any possibility that might occur. That includes the possibility that these "projections" are fictional stories made up by my mind. Although, what I've experienced so far as been as real as this physical reality... which is what then brings me to my first question, "What is real?"
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Worldenterer1
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Worldenterer1 » 16 Feb 2013 03:10

Ryan wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:I just think it's arrogant to see the whole universe as depending on the human race. All we are really, are animals that are smarter than the other ones. Species have gone extinct before, and someday, humans might too. I hardly think that's any reason for the universe to disappear. Plus, we are not the only species to have consciousness. We are just intelligent enough to utilize it more effectively than other species. You can go and look up studies where scientists prove that some animals understand this kind of stuff by smudging paint on their face, and then putting them in front of a mirror. The animal sees itself in the mirror, and rubs at its face. This proves that the animal understands that it is seeing itself in the mirror and has its own body separate from everything else.

You misunderstand what I'm saying...

First, I never said that it depended upon the "human race". I said it requires "consciousnesses" in order to maintain its stability. And yes, as you suggest, animals are "conscious" as well... and they are included in that stability.

Also, "intelligence" has no bearing upon what is labeled to have "consciousness". That fly buzzing around your head during the summer months is as conscious as you are... it's not as "intelligent", but it's consciousness is enough to "create".

And honestly, I don't even know if this is the case... one of many possible scenarios.

Am I making more sense this time? :)


I now understand what it is you mean. I was mistaken before. But even if all life did not exist, why would rocks floating in space and time cease to exist? ;)
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Worldenterer1
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Worldenterer1 » 16 Feb 2013 03:18

Summerlander wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:
Worldenterer1 wrote:
It has been an honor conversing with you and others! 8-)


I think that's a good idea SL. I think I might be hanging up my rifle soon as well! :)


Join me. :D

There are people like us in the limelight who devote their lives in attempting to wake those who continue to dream and refuse to accept that it is nothing but that.



Also, "intelligence" has no bearing upon what is labeled to have "consciousness". That fly buzzing around your head during the summer months is as conscious as you are... it's not as "intelligent", but it's consciousness is enough to "create"


A fly is not as conscious as a human. A fly's brain only supports around 100,000 cells compared to 100 billion of them in humans. A cockroach will even beat a fly in brain power. But the fact of the matter is... humans are self-aware, insects are not.

Also, although consciousness and intelligence are two different things, the two of them are not orthogonal to each other. To have a certain degree of intelligence requires a certain degree of consciousness. :mrgreen:

If consciousness was omnipresent in the universe, no distinctions between consciousness and unconsciousness would be possible. And scientists wouldn't be devising units of measure like "phi" either.

Another thing: the universe existed prior to consciousness. This is scientific fact. The building blocks of life are already known (see the SPONCH acronym). Mostly, it's carbon based. Carbon is a heavy element that did not exist in the earlier universe and life was certainly not possible. The universe could just as easily not have created life. Life occurred at random and once it started, it developed and natural selection kicked in.

Humans were never as conscious as they are now. To say that consciousness creates this universe is not only arrogant but ignorant too. Consciousness is a byproduct of a universe that evolved into complexity. Just like a planet or star that forms in space and develops its gravity, so is consciousness developed by organisms.

If an asteroid struck the Earth and wiped us all out, the universe would still exist. This is only logical. Well, one need not go that far. A blow to the head can render anyone unconscious. Damage to the brain can seriously impair mental faculties. In fact, all mental properties are subject to expunction via damage to areas of the brain. Even a living thing can become unconscious. Where has consciousness gone then? LOL!

For those interested in sound scientific theories for consciousness, check out the work of Christof Koch and Giulio Tononi integrated information theory:

"...approach is anchored in the principle that there is a minimal set of neuronal mechanisms that are jointly sufficient for a specific conscious percept—the neural correlates of consciousness (NCC). According to this definition, most neurons are not part of the NCC. For example, activity in the retina is correlated with visual consciousness, but is not sufficient to cause it. In fact, most retinal activity never makes it into awareness. In binocular rivalry, activity in early visual cortex (V1) does not predict conscious awareness, whereas activity in higher areas such as inferotemporal (IT) cortex does. Thus, Koch concludes that some neurons in IT are likely to be part of the NCC whereas neurons in the retina or V1 are not. Further, he notes that “large parts of the cerebral cortex can be destroyed without any overall loss of function after recovery” and these are thus not part of the NCC either. The cerebellum, for example, contains more neurons than the human cortex, but its loss does not impair consciousness but rather fine motor movements. On the other hand, a comparatively small bilateral lesion in a particular area of the brainstem leads to irreversible loss of consciousness, leaving the person in a vegetative state."

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-05-02/?gclid=CKjQkvaquLUCFY3LtAodemwAoQ#feature

And there was me thinking that I had expired my input here. Now I believe I have though! :lol:



Hey hey Summerlander, I thought you were finished with input! :lol:
Glad to see you're keeping up with this thread though. We think similarly, you and I. However, these discussions call me to keep on going, as tempting as it is to join you in hiatus. I will probably begin writing a final manifesto just as you did, to sum up all my beliefs and opinions. Whether I will hang up the rifle or not is to be seen.

*Ahem* It's analogy time!
If I am a great hunter, I would rather die on a hunt than hang up my rifle! 8-)

(Not to imply that I hunt people who disagree with me! :lol: Like I said: just an analogy)
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