My mind won't be quiet!!!

Discuss lucid dreaming techniques including dream recall, MILD, WILD, meditation and other ways of attaining lucidity in dreams.
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Ryan
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Ryan » 21 Feb 2013 05:18

KylePK wrote:http://www.scribd.com/doc/2425218/NEW-ENERGY-WAYS-by-Robert-Bruce
Chapter two I think

My hero! Yup, that's the one. :)

Give that a quick read. Very keen insight into what "visualization" is truly about.
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KylePK
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 21 Feb 2013 05:42

Ryan wrote:
KylePK wrote:http://www.scribd.com/doc/2425218/NEW-ENERGY-WAYS-by-Robert-Bruce
Chapter two I think

My hero! Yup, that's the one. :)

Give that a quick read. Very keen insight into what "visualization" is truly about.


I read it and quite a lot more of it, and found it difficult to get a good idea of what he meant with visualization. I have a hard time with both definitions; seeing like a tv in your mind; and also not really seeing but being more aware of your senses in the visualization? Yeah definitely needs thought and practice, no?
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taniaaust1
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby taniaaust1 » 21 Feb 2013 14:09

Ryan wrote:
KylePK wrote:http://www.scribd.com/doc/2425218/NEW-ENERGY-WAYS-by-Robert-Bruce
Chapter two I think

My hero! Yup, that's the one. :)

Give that a quick read. Very keen insight into what "visualization" is truly about.


I didnt make it clear by how I described in my last post but to me "imagining" is visualisation.. and by what he said too.. he believes the same. My issue thou is when I say I dont visualise things well .. is that Im also saying that I do not "imagine" things well either. When one "imagines" one usually "sees" .. not like he was refering to as watching a little tv inside ones head (which he talked about rare people doing which I agree it isnt common), but most people can "see" by imagining and then they can describe what they imagine. Which is what I usually cant do. I cannot imagine much more then a simple shape say something like a red triangle.

he goes on to say
. I have asked many people who have claimed they cannot visualize, if they ever fantasize or daydream or imagine things. The answer is always a resounding YES! Everyone is perfectly capable of using their imagination to build ‘detailed’ fantasies in their mind’s eye, even though they claim not to be able to visualize effectively; asdiscussed above. So let’s get something straight here once and for all: Imagination IS visualization andvisualization IS imagination. These are one and the same ability.


Well he's wrong there. I rarely daydream (or if I do I blank out competely.. on the other rare occassions I actually DO see things which isnt an imagination seeing at all like he's speaking about but more like watching something with my eyes), I dont even "imagine" things during sex for excitement as I lack the ability to "imagine" so I lack ability to fantasize. (which frustrates my boyfriend as I cant enjoy any of his fantasies with him or even do my own, no way to turn myself on in my own mind by my own thoughts or even another sharing a sex story as I lack capability to imagine/fantazise it).

If someone is describing something to me.. I can not "imagine" it at all unless Ive seen it before and remember well (or unless I get a clairvoyant image.. at times my natural psi skills fill in the missing gaps). Lack of being able to "visualize/imagine/fantasize" or whatever you want to call it.. they are all the same thing.. often causes issues to me as it means I need to ask people to "show me" what they are refering to, its usually no good descripting stuff to me. It also causes me issues in my home when buying something.. as I cant "imagine" items outside of the place Im actually seeing them with my eyes. (so cant see somethign and know it will look good in a certain place in my home.. cause I cant imagine).

So im going to disagree with Robert Bruce and say no not everyone has the "same" ability with this as he also stated somewhere in his post. Some people really struggle with it..be it caling it "visualisation" fantasy or imagination. Some people like myself, do not "percieve" in this way (percieve was another term he used for it) things well in their minds in this way.

Memory plays an important part with imagination. Have you ever lost anything: your keys, a pen, your Koala,money, etc? If you have, after searching vainly for the item, you probably tried to recreate recent actions in yourmind’s eye to help remember where you lost the item. You would have replayed these actions in your mind’seye, going over your every step. Recreating actions and events like this is pure mind’s eye imaging, theconstructive use of imagination, based entirely upon memory. This is perfect visualization!


I agree.. if one has seen something before .. memory does play a big part in imagining or visualizing something. My memory problems I have are part of the reason why I find visualisation so hard to do but isnt the full reason as I always had visualisation issues even before I had memory issues.
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 22 Feb 2013 07:49

taniaaust1 wrote:My issue thou is when I say I dont visualise things well .. is that Im also saying that I do not "imagine" things well either. When one "imagines" one usually "sees" .. not like he was refering to as watching a little tv inside ones head (which he talked about rare people doing which I agree it isnt common), but most people can "see" by imagining and then they can describe what they imagine. Which is what I usually cant do.


Bingo, me too here. I can imagine things but I can't do detail, which I would very much like to be able to do. Its more like impressions. Some of the visualization/imagining exercises he lists in that chapter or a bit later proved to be rather difficult, as I can't maintain a constant stream of focus towards what I am imagining. Its like after I imagine or visualize a scenario up to a certain point, I lose the continuity and have to jump back into the visualization. Thats why earlier in this post said I could not imagine or visualize even moderate amounts of space, like on a city street.
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby taniaaust1 » 22 Feb 2013 09:08

Forgot the city street, I cant even imagine a simple item such as a car well at all. Im really stuck not being able to imagine more then a simple shape in a colour. I cant even imagine my own mother and if I was asked to describe her.. I couldnt other then thin with a hair colour and hair a certain length. I'd be hopeless if I ever witnessed a crime asd I wouldnt be able to give any real details.

...

The good thing is even if we cant imagine.. there are still other ways we can trigger LDs or OBEs.
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby KylePK » 22 Feb 2013 19:39

Well then how should we begin to further deepen our ability to imagine? What do you think? The exercise listed earlier in the thread seems promising at a slow progression.
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby taniaaust1 » 23 Feb 2013 02:55

KylePK wrote:Well then how should we begin to further deepen our ability to imagine? What do you think? The exercise listed earlier in the thread seems promising at a slow progression.


Maybe some with practice get better at imagining.. in my case that didnt improve things much thou I did work on that many years ago. Best luck if you are going to practice to hopefully build up your ability in that area. I dont think anyone can tell you what you should try next as we are all different, maybe go with whatever you are most drawn to try.

As far as LD goes I try to allow my subconscious to do the work for me. I believe this is ALWAYS creating images but just usually dont see them (so it doesnt matter if we cant imagine or create any form of images in our minds ourselves).. its a matter of just learning to deepen our state enough for the images to come throu and show themselves while having the will power not to full consciously asleep. (or one can enter into LDs without any of this imaginating stuff too hence why i do energy raising techniques).
...............................

When it comes to OBE things thou .. Ive used tactile feels instead to "try" to get myself out of body (and they do losen my astral body from physical). They help but werent the whole answer to me being able to have OBEs and wouldnt have done so using that alone (for myself once again it came back to energy raising).

.........

best luck. You just need to find what works for you. If you cant image at all via getting any feel of what an image is.. maybe just focus on the feelings instead can you remember and recreate with just feeling alone what it feels like walking somewhere? or climbing? The more relaxed the better, let go. or if you are into music.. while ready for bed, try to stay awake while riding your feelings on the music... and maybe you can ride its energy straight into a WILD.

or do lots and lots of reality checking and hopefully just wake up then already in a dream (thou reality checking hasnt done much for me.. but probably cause I never did it enough after the first couple of weeks of seriously doing it as I dont have much interest in that).
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Ryan
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Ryan » 24 Feb 2013 03:24

First, yes, "imagining" is what I would consider to be visualization. It's like when you "remember" a memory. You don't *see* the memory visually, but you see it with your other senses. Once you actually start to visually SEE what you're visualizing, you're no longer doing visualization and you've moved onto a more Remote Viewing type action. :)

Kyle, try this for practicing... (and remember, only practice will help improve your visualization).
Start small and work your way up.

For example... start off visualizing a rock. Imagine it in your mind as clear as you can... get as many of your physical senses involved as you can. Spin it around, look at it from all angles... see the light reflecting off it... feel the roughness or smoothness of the rock. You've got 2 senses involved with this so far. Sight and Touch... try adding another. Smell the rock? Or perhaps, taste it? That might be strange though. LOL

Anyway, that's "starting small". From there, increase the complexity... visualize a bunch of rocks, perhaps a beach. Use something from your memory, a beach you've been to before. Walk along that beach, feel the rocks underfoot, maybe the waves splashing up... the birds flying and making noise. Then from here get even more complex... you hear children playing off in the distance, splashing in the water... etc...

Now, chances are that as you were reading the above, you were actually visualizing it as you read it. See? That's just how easy visualization is.

You can use this as a means to project as well... try to get as much of your physical senses into the visualization as you possibly can. Now, here's the fun part, you don't have to be too detailed, because your mind will naturally fill in the blanks on its own. This is how you dream, your subconscious creates entire dream worlds for you to experience... let it do what it does best!

As you do these visualizations, you'll find stuff occurring that you didn't actively create... just go with it. Allow yourself to be taken into the scene and experience it. Eventually, you'll be doing this and you'll notice that you are THERE, in the scene. You were "here" (physical), then you are "there" (non-physical)... You're phasing. :)
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taniaaust1
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby taniaaust1 » 24 Feb 2013 03:41

Ryan wrote: Start small and work your way up.

For example... start off visualizing a rock. Imagine it in your mind as clear as you can... get as many of your physical senses involved as you can. Spin it around, look at it from all angles... see the light reflecting off it... feel the roughness or smoothness of the rock. You've got 2 senses involved with this so far. Sight and Touch... try adding another. Smell the rock? Or perhaps, taste it? That might be strange though. LOL

Anyway, that's "starting small".


oh LMAO.. you say that's starting small. That is extremely complicated and advanced for those of us who cant visualise or imagine objects. You dont seem to understand how complex that is to imagine that.

Ryan.. Hopefully Kyle will manage that exercise but I've tired exercises just like that a lot in the past when I was working on visualisation and trying to imagine things (i tried working on my visualisation for at least 2 years.. probably a lot longer than that, probably more like 5 years as it was part of the yogi stuff I used to do and visualisation was included in it. My teacher saw visualisation as important so we had daily visualisation exercises to do). I tried to imagine a rock, a leaf, a feather and was working on those basic objects without success at all thou doing this daily.

When do that exercise I get as far as imagining the feel of heaviness in my hand from the rock Im attempting to imagine (where as if I try this exercise with a feather I get nothing at all cause a feather is light. I cant imagine what being tiggled with a feather feels like). I CAN thou imagine weighty things in hand but that is as far as I ever got when trying to imagine items in my hand. I can not imagine holding shapes in my hand. I cant imagine moving it.. and I cant (cause I cant see) imagine light coming off of it. To try to imagine a shape of the rock in my hand as I cant feel it when its just sitting there (only heavy).. that means I need to then try to imagine my other hand reaching over to touch the rock so I can get a feel for its shape... but unfortunately my ability to "imagie" (cause still some kind of image has to be going on in the brain even if one cant clearly see it) doesnt extend that far. So all Im left with is imaging my hand.. holding onto a weight of some kind.. of a form I cant have any sense of and no other way to engage in a shapeless thing and try as I may.. I cant imagine any further with it (I cant imagine the pain of dropping it on my toe or things like that.. pain I find hard to imagine without it being real).

I think this is why ROPE failed for me when I was doing OBE, thou its a feeling body thing.. I still couldnt imagine it. I worked with the technique for many months without it being successful. Thou I know many who cant visualise can imagine their body climbing a rope hence why i suggested it.

How does one get past that inablity to preceive a rock at all except in its weight??? I daily tried to imagine for a very very long time simple objects but it didnt extend my ability to imagine something any more then what it feels like to have the weight of a rock in my hand. I still couldnt get past weight. I dont know how to get the "perception" of rock there (im not talking about "seeing it" but just having a perception of it which would make it to be a rock.. perception and imagination is the same thing). How do you spin it around and see it at all angles if one cant even imagine it being turned around or even preceive the object in any way exept its weight? I cant even "see" it (imagine) a rock and distinish it from anything else heavy in my hand. I cant imagine its roughness or smoothness, I cant imagine a lump on the rock as I cant imagine running my fingers over it so cant imagine what it feels like to that degree, that imagination is too complex.. whereas imagining it heavy in hand is easiler as it isnt as complex.

How does one get past this degree of block.. Im stuck on "step 1" cause at least I can imagine a weight :D haha got to be happy about the positives and what I can do) with no idea how to get to step two of getting some kind of form in my imagination thou Ive tired. I can very very occassionally imagine the smell of something but mostly my imagination consists on feel but feel in which I dont have to engage my brain much..

Ive never been able to imagine a taste not even the taste of lemons and never been able to imagine hearing something either. So its touch that Im mostly likely to be able to imagine but only at basic level as to "imagine" even touch.. one usually gets an perception of what its like.. even if one cant see it. If Im holding an actual rock in my hand and running my hands along it.. then I can imagine it.. but then that isnt really imaging as Im holding and feeling it with my real body.

Maybe if I sat there with an actual rock every day.. running my hands over it and imagining what it feels like at the same time.. I could program my brain to remember that exact rock to the point I could percieve it without that rock but then that would be more like creating a memory imprint rather then just imagining something and hence wouldnt extend to the various other things one may want to imagine.

sorry if all my frustration re imagining something (or visualisation as you are calling it) is showing in my post. But yeah that has been sooo frustrating for me and thou I know your post was for Kyle, Ive had so many people say to me.. u just start out simple (thou your simple made me laugh as everyone else who Ive heard say that.. made it much simplier thou still not successful for me. Id be happy just being able to imagine or visualise what I recognise to be a "rock" in my hand).

My suggestion of starting off simple would be..
1/ try to imagine holding a rock and its weight
2/ stroke yourself with a finger nail slowly and feel this. Do it over and over too you think you can imagine what it feels like. Then imagine that stroke happening in the same place.. in your mind. (Robert Bruces tactile imagining.. I can actually do that but maybe cause I are capable of feeling energy on my body). This exercise is simplier "to me" cause its feel and is also focus on just one point.. no real details involved.

I cause cause I CAN do the two things above.. I shouldnt say I cant imagine at all. but in truth my imagination ability is the equalivant of someone who is severely dyslexic who is trying to write and tries and tries to learn to write..

other so called simples
3/ Try to visualise a colour (I find that hard thou can visualise "light" some colours I can never imagine eg yellow)
4/ Try to visualise a 2D shape (I struggle some with simple 3 D shapes)

...........

Kyle.. I suggest to trial Ryans exercise daily for 2 weeks and get back to us how you do with that exercise. How far can you imagine the rock? Can you imagine the weight in your hand of the rock? or not.. or imagine more then that with some practice on imagining holding an object in hand? Im curious how far your degree of imagination extends to. Rock as Ryan suggests is a good thing to try to imagine.
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Ryan
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Re: My mind won't be quiet!!!

Postby Ryan » 24 Feb 2013 07:36

Yeah, what she suggest. :) Definitely good!

One suggestion with the rock... or any object really... find an object (like a rock) and stare it at for a while, memorizing it in as much detail as you're comfortable. Then try to visualize it. :)
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