What are your religious views?

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What are your religious views?

Deeply religious - I follow a strict religious code and trust my life to a higher authority
22
19%
Somewhat religious - I believe in a higher intelligence watching over us
38
32%
Agnostic - I'm on the fence; you really can't say either way at this time
29
25%
Atheist - I don't believe there is a higher intelligence watching over us
29
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 Mar 2013 05:17

Jack Reacher wrote:
lucidinthe sky wrote:
Jack Reacher wrote: But as you grow older and mature as a responsible adult, going through the infinite possibilities of theoretical explanations to explain a single phenomenon that you experienced in your small life is really a waste of time if you are doing it at this deep level. At a young age you sort of accept that one of those billions of contradicting solutions could be true, and you just move on really. To discuss something that cannot be proved, has no real reasoning behind it, and has nothing to do with the actual issues that we all face, to me personally seems to be a huge waste of time. And to actually base your real life decisions on something like that is another step entirely and honestly in my opinion is extremely irresponsible for an adult to do.


So what you are saying are saying is that and only irresponsible and immature people believe in God? This idea looks like the typical atheist self-righteousness. Just more dogma as far as I'm concerned.


No im not saying that at all, I never mentioned God once. I simply said to base your actions on ideas that are unfalsible and have no real reasoning behind them are indeed irresponsible. Believing in something like that isn't really irresponsible, I never really said anything about that. Instead of twisting my words, maybe highlight where I actually say what you imply.


So quoting your exact words is really in effect twisting them? Wow, that's pretty clever! And yes God was specifically mentioned by Taniaaust1 in your quoting and I will quote: "People seriously talk about GOD and other things..and that cant be proven. It doesnt mean its not worth serious discussion (thou may not be to all). Its just a matter of what is resonating to you."
So God was mentioned and your words were not twisted, only quoted. My point is that you can express your opinion without insulting people with these kinds of statements such as inferring that people who believe in things that haven't been proven are being extremely irresponsible and immature. It's unnecessary and doesn't impress anyone. It just sounds judgemental, exactly like the religious fundamentalists you claim to be different than.
Last edited by lucidinthe sky on 07 Mar 2013 06:39, edited 3 times in total.
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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 07 Mar 2013 06:35

Ryan wrote:
Jack Reacher wrote:Yeah you gotta be realistic and stand up for yourselves, you cant just sit back and hope the enemy sees te light and tries to become a better person. Instead, they will just take advantage of you for their own gains, that pretty much what war is all about, its a nash equilibrium.

Becoming a better person is something the individual decides or wants to do, its something you just choose. Its not something that should be done, or is a sort of natural law, because there really is no such thing as an overlying purpose or way of life, thats the beauty of it, you just choose it yourself. You do however choose the consequences that come with it.

I beg to differ... I believe that becoming a better person, becoming closer to "Love" is the entire point of this life. :)

You are right though, it's a choice. The actions you choose to determines how close you get to becoming Love. Why do I think this? Because it goes back to what I said before to Peter when he asked me what I meant when I said I've become a better person. My life has become so joyous ever since I "chose" become a better person and to perceive the world differently.


Ok sure I will agree that choosing to be a good person makes your life much more fulfilling, but that doesn't necessary mean it is the meaning of our life. It is simply a path you can take, it is not THE path you must take. And like I said before, in some political situations you cant afford to take that path due to others taking advantage of you.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 07 Mar 2013 06:40

lucidinthe sky wrote:
Jack Reacher wrote:
lucidinthe sky wrote:
So what you are saying are saying is that and only irresponsible and immature people believe in God? This idea looks like the typical atheist self-righteousness. Just more dogma as far as I'm concerned.


No im not saying that at all, I never mentioned God once. I simply said to base your actions on ideas that are unfalsible and have no real reasoning behind them are indeed irresponsible. Believing in something like that isn't really irresponsible, I never really said anything about that. Instead of twisting my words, maybe highlight where I actually say what you imply.


So quoting your exact words is really in effect twisting them? Wow, that's pretty clever! And yes God was specifically mentioned by Taniaaust1 in your quoting and I will quote: "People seriously talk about GOD and other things..and that cant be proven. It doesnt mean its not worth serious discussion (thou may not be to all). Its just a matter of what is resonating to you."

What I'm saying is that you can try to make your points without insulting people with these kinds of statements such as inferring that people who believe in things that haven't been scientifically proven are being extremely irresponsible and immature. It just sounds judgemental, exactly like the religious fundamentalists you claim to be different than.


By twisting my words I mean you are picking out only parts of what im saying and implying that I am a fundamentalist or whatever it is you are upset about. You misunderstand me, when I replayed to Taniaaust I was talking about general objects that cant be proven in principle, God happens to be apart of that. Second im not saying choosing to believe in this stuff is irresponsible, i cant really remember this stuff it was so long ago man but I was really talking about not what it is you believe in, but how you deal with the real issues in this world. I simply think its irresponsible to block out other peoples suffering and label it as something else under your belief system.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 Mar 2013 07:17

Going back to your original statement, I just want to make sure I have this right. So in your little belief system, we are allowed to be mature, responsible adults if we believe in unproven things, but never act on them or apply them to our "real" life? Simply believing in something that can't be proven is O.K. but acting on those beliefs is not O.K.?

But what about all the acts of love and kindness people do because they are following what they believe God is telling them? Don't those count? What if God is telling me to actually help that suffering person about whom you seem to be so concerned? Is that O.K. even though I am acting on a belief? I've acted on a lot things that I believe came from some higher power, and they've turned out really good as far as I can see. I can't deny my experiences because someon else requires proof. And we also really can't make these kinds of generalizations that people who act on beliefs are being irresponsible and immature, can we?
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 07 Mar 2013 07:32

lucidinthe sky wrote:Going back to your original statement, I just want to make sure I have this right. So in your little belief system, we are allowed to be mature, responsible adults if we believe in unproven things, but never act on them or apply them to our "real" life? Simply believing in something that can't be proven is O.K. but acting on those beliefs is not O.K.?

But what about all the acts of love and kindness people do because they are following what they believe God is telling them? Don't those count? What if God is telling me to actually help that suffering person about whom you seem to be so concerned? Is that O.K. even though I am acting on a belief? I've acted on a lot things that I believe came from some higher power, and they've turned out really good as far as I can see. I can't deny my own experiences because someone else requires proof.


Come on obviously not man, of course I don't think its wrong to do something good because you believe in God. Yes I know I said to act on those beliefs can be irresponsible, but not in that kind of context you are thinking of, I have already given examples of the kind of stuff I am talking about.

Now I don't really have a belief system, I usually go about things by a case by case basis. Now as for helping people out simply because your religion told you to, I think thats all very well, but helping them out because you choose to do so regardless of what any religion says, simply because you want to and because you think it is the moral way to go, is a characterisitic I would respect. Im sorry if that sounds too judgemental to you, its just my view and opinion. There are also negatives to your arguement, people have done horrible things in the name of God.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 07 Mar 2013 20:18

Jack Reacher wrote:Ok sure I will agree that choosing to be a good person makes your life much more fulfilling, but that doesn't necessary mean it is the meaning of our life. It is simply a path you can take, it is not THE path you must take. And like I said before, in some political situations you cant afford to take that path due to others taking advantage of you.

I asked myself this question regarding politics not too long ago: Why do we not see any spiritually progressed people or gurus in politics?

I don't really want to pursue a discussion in politics though, so I'll just leave it at that. :)
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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 07 Mar 2013 20:44

Because its just not reality. Dont really know how else to put that except go study more politics and real world issues and it should just simply make sense.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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Peter
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 08 Mar 2013 00:56

IMO politics is the ultimate expression of ego as they always seem to lose all sense and make it so personal towards each other.
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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 08 Mar 2013 02:41

Peter wrote:IMO politics is the ultimate expression of ego as they always seem to lose all sense and make it so personal towards each other.

Nail on the head, Peter. :)
That's my thoughts too.

Kinda seems like that's what some people do here too. lol
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Summerlander
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 09 Mar 2013 15:48

I'm enjoying this discussion and I find it amusing how some people derive erroneous conclusions from a simple fact that was stated. I mean, how do you go from the fact that Gandhi's pacifism would not have worked during the Holocaust (and Gandhi himself knew this) to concluding that whoever brings this to mind must believe that people should not better themselves? I'm lost there! :D

First of all, I'd like to reiterate something here for emphasis. Gandhi's pacifism, and even his famous message of being the change you want to see in the world, although seemingly powerful and admirable, is flawed.

No amount of pacifism could have saved the Jews from what was coming to them. Hitler made sure young Germans were indoctrinated into seeing Jews as inferior and the Church itself sanctioned their ostracisation and I don't have to mention this is religiously related!

Hitler had got hold of a copy of a now known to be anti-Semitic hoax by the name of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was purported to be evidence that Jewish people were meeting in secret and planned to control the world's economy. Hitler wanted German children to learn about this at school as though it were the truth. Such belief would be ingrained in their minds coupled with the pressures of irrational religious fever that would support it.

The Protocols, even today, are still believed to be genuine and are used as an excuse to persecute Jews in the Arab world!

The point I'm making with all of this is that people have different ideas about what is good and bad, what is moral and immoral, and conflict inevitably arises. No amount of pacifism and no amount of expressed ratiocination would stop a Christian from killing a Jew if he believes this one is a spawn of Satan. The Jew might plead with the Christian to spare him on the grounds of compassion, and even add the reminder that he is just a human being like him, but to the Christian such speech might as well be the Devil using clever and deceitful words.

Had the Jews just stood where they were, without fighting or hiding, the Third Reich's job would have been much easier. Imagine that Jewish people at the time had adopted Gandhi's pacifism and message of being the change they wanted to see in the world. Their pacifist stance before the Nazi German would only insure and invite a speedy execution provided that there is no time for brutal abuse and humiliation. In the Nazi mind, Jews are inferior, and, whatever behaviour these adopt can never sway Third Reich mentality into profound realisations. The Jewish Gandhian internal change would not have prevented the Holocaust. Adolph Hitler had goals in his mind.

In the same vein, the Dalai Lama's Buddhism, however powerful and righteous this philosophy may be (and I happen to vouch for it) could not have stopped the Chinese invasion.

My message to those people who have found their meaning of life is this: you can provide an example but don't expect everyone to see it your way and certainly don't try to force it upon others. I find it nauseating when people start talking about finding "Love" with the capital "L" like it's something everyone must follow, the only truth, as though the world is compatibly as black and white like that. It's quasi-religious in the sense that "Love" is like this deity that everyone must worship. But what version and what about the various interests that people have? Is it globally applicable? Certainly not. Where's the criterion for it that will lead us to an overall ethical solution that will put an end to conflict? People love different things.

A serial killer may kill more people if he loves the sight of blood and the message "be the change you want to see in the world" could incite more violence and unorthodoxical provocation if such individual wishes to see other people do the same. There are minds who fantasise about people killing each other and watching the world burn.

A good samaritan might distract a gang of thugs from kidnapping a poor woman on the streets by simply pretending he is lost and asking for instructions. In the confusion, the woman might escape. But is this the right thing to do? It won't change the way the criminals think and they will still go on doing what they do. In the majority of cases, going against them and letting them know we won't stand for such behaviour is the noblest and most effective option.

Sure, you could be injured or even killed, but those hoodlums would think twice about misbehaving next time if they are reminded that there are risks and consequences. They need to know some people won't just stand there and let it all happen. People are built differently. :twisted:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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