What are your religious views?

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What are your religious views?

Deeply religious - I follow a strict religious code and trust my life to a higher authority
22
19%
Somewhat religious - I believe in a higher intelligence watching over us
38
32%
Agnostic - I'm on the fence; you really can't say either way at this time
29
25%
Atheist - I don't believe there is a higher intelligence watching over us
29
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 21 Mar 2013 14:33

Summerlander wrote:To Ryan: that's pure conjecture buddy

Of course it is. Everyone here knows that.

and a highly improbable one too.

And that is your opinion, of which, you're free to hold.
I, however, think that there is some probability.

certainly nothing has been detected to exit the body either.

ACTUALLY, there has been experiments done on the dying where they put them on a very fine measuring table. What they noticed is that at the moment of death, they lost a few ounces of weight.

Not conclusive by any means, but hard to ignore as well. hehe
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Summerlander
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Mar 2013 18:15

Ryan wrote:
Summerlander wrote:To Ryan: that's pure conjecture buddy

Of course it is. Everyone here knows that.


Then why pass it off like it's a truism, Ryan? :|

Ryan wrote:
and a highly improbable one too.

And that is your opinion, of which, you're free to hold.
I, however, think that there is some probability.


But it is not just an opinion that I'm holding, is it, Ryan? If you look closely, you will realise that such opinion is formed based on where the evidence points. What you say is as probable as Santa delivering presents to children. The same argument goes for God. If you are going to believe in Him, why not, say, Zeus or Apollo?

There is no reason to believe that such supernatural beings exist just like there is no reason to believe in ghosts... unless you take those scary stories you were told as a child seriously, of course. The probability-improbability factor is not as 50-50 as you think.

A child believing in Santa is more justifiable on the grounds that there was once a 4th century bishop called Nikolaos who had the reputation for secretly giving gifts - but he never lived in the North Pole with elves and he certainly did not fly around in a sleigh pulled by reindeer. :P

If I told you that there is a gnome living in my garden would you find this probable? :shock:

Ryan wrote:
certainly nothing has been detected to exit the body either.

ACTUALLY, there has been experiments done on the dying where they put them on a very fine measuring table. What they noticed is that at the moment of death, they lost a few ounces of weight. Not conclusive by any means, but hard to ignore as well. hehe


ACTUALLY, such experiments did not show that a spirit exited the body at all, but rather, something else which was entirely natural. They were actually conclusive, but conclusive of something else entirely and in answer to a man who made a wild claim based on biased experiments. :mrgreen:

The story starts with doctor Duncan MacDougall, who was religious, by the way. And pay attention because this is another example of religion attempting to use science to fit their tenets by deliberately manipulating and/or misinterpreting experimental data. :twisted:

MacDougall ostentated that the human soul weighs 21 grams, which is absolutely ridiculous and it is not surprising that his test has never been repeated with the same results. He was known to be very imprecise in his measurements and extremely biased. Some said he was suspect from the get-go.

We can now ascertain that the 21-gram soul notion is all hooey thanks to real science. One can see MacDougall mistaking the loss of weight due to evaporation of moisture in respiration, evaporation of sweat, the evacuation of urine etc. for that of the departure of the soul. Very unscientific and not deserving of merit.

It is not surprising then that no loss was reported for dogs as this corroborated his religious belief that animals don't have souls! Further down the trough, it was found that this doctor had failed to take into account the sudden rise in temperature at death when the blood stops being air-cooled through the lungs. It is also a known fact that in humans the sudden rise will cause sweat and moisture evaporation (hence weight loss) and why this did not register in dogs (dogs cool themselves by panting, not sweating!)

MacDougall demonstrated nothing but natural post-mortem weight loss - nothing to do with souls!!

The only credit I would give him would be for admitting that his experiments would have to be repeated many times with similar results before any conclusions were made. But the conclusions others got from mending his errors and repeating the experiments properly was something quite different. There was weight loss but they found that MacDougall had got the amounts wrong. For starters, even the scales were found to be erroneous.

There is no doubt in my mind that if MacDougall had experienced lucid dreaming he would have used that too as absolute proof that consciousness can exist outside the body and independent of it and conveniently reject the feasibility of such experience having been hallucinated.

And this is what happens when people speak before they get their facts straight. This is what happens when you don't inform yourself first. :mrgreen:

@ everyone:

I wanted to share this with everyone regarding God, by the way:
"If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not. There is evil in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist."
- Epicurus
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Jack Reacher
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Jack Reacher » 21 Mar 2013 21:17

Just watched 21 grams a few nights ago actually, great movie.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 22 Mar 2013 02:13

Summerlander...
As usual, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

I simply don't see the world like you do anymore. I did at one point though... strangely enough.

This is why YOU will always be out to jump on anything and everything I ever have to say here, or anywhere for that matter. Take a look at all your posts just in this thread alone, all the name calling you throw out, all the belittling you attempt to do to other people's beliefs... it's no surprise your OBE4U forum is empty now.

You create the world you live in... you've created an empty world for yourself.
You're a prime example of that which you try so hard to fight against.

At this point, unless you choose to discuss things to not only myself but others as well with a more positive tone, as I have tried with you throughout this entire thread, I really have no interest in continuing any discussions with you.

Jack Reacher wrote:Just watched 21 grams a few nights ago actually, great movie.

That's what it was. 21 grams! The weight... not the movie. LoL
Thanks :)
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mikeg313
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby mikeg313 » 22 Mar 2013 03:28

Summerlander wrote:
So we wanted to suffer? We were masochistic spirits? First of all, how can you ask to experience that which you don't know. And if you were shown by this "Higher Being" you speak of, before entering the earthly realm, what would be the point in going? Moreover, I doubt anyone would want to experience pain after glimpsing it. :shock:


First of all, you are thinking one dimensional and like a human. I said suffer (an example), but others may not. Its free will. Some may pick happiness and success, richness,poorness.I dont have to list it all here. A HOLIDAY: Disney, waterworld, bunny ranch paintball. Same thing, different entity.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 22 Mar 2013 05:32

Summerlander wrote:
Many women get upset if they end up not being able to have a natural delivery of babies... they can get very upset at missing out of the whole painful experience.


That is absolute bull-crap! :lol:


Summerlander, I suppose that this comment, as usual, comes from your vast reservoir of knowledge on the subject?

Do me a big favor and lay off these things :lol: . They are getting pretty old and not working after the 200th time you've used them.

Ryan wrote: Summerlander...
At this point, unless you choose to discuss things to not only myself but others as well with a more positive tone, as I have tried with you throughout this entire thread, I really have no interest in continuing any discussions with you.


Thank you Ryan! That comment goes for me too, and probably others on this forum who are tired of Mr. KNOW-IT-ALL attempting to educate everyone else whether they want it or not.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Ryan
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Ryan » 22 Mar 2013 13:48

I think this post I'm going to make suits this thread nicely, since it's all about respecting beliefs... be it religious, spiritual, or any other.

Summerlander...
I *KNOW* you're not a bad person. I've seen your good side many times... you honestly need to nurture that more. It would do you wonders for how you interact with people.

You just don't seem able to comprehend the fact that people are going to have different beliefs than you. Not only that, but they will hold beliefs with nothing to support them but faith and experience. Faith that what they've experienced is true. People believe in a god, because they believe they've experienced such. Who are you or I to tell them that they are wrong?

I honestly don't think you'll find a SINGLE PERSON on this site who believes your statement that Lucid and I are living in bubbles... and your statement speaks volumes more of YOU than it does of us.

Until you can learn to respect others' opinions and beliefs, and interact on a level that doesn't include name calling and belittling people... you honestly have no place on ANY forum. It's not even something hard to learn... re-read your posts before you hit the "submit" button. Read it from the perspective of someone else... read it in somebody else's shoes. I've been known to write entire posts, then delete them... because either the content just doesn't really matter, or it's "too blunt" and I try to re-word things in a more positive tone.

You don't have to change who you are to do this. Just a change of perspective. As I said, I KNOW you're a good person, but that gets completely clouded by this negative persona you bring to your posts. You have so much knowledge and information to share with people... perhaps stick to just sharing and less criticizing.
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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 23 Mar 2013 06:10

Ryan wrote: ...people are going to have different beliefs than you. Not only that, but they will hold beliefs with nothing to support them but faith and experience. Faith that what they've experienced is true. People believe in a god, because they believe they've experienced such. Who are you or I to tell them that they are wrong?

I honestly don't think you'll find a SINGLE PERSON on this site who believes your statement that Lucid and I are living in bubbles... and your statement speaks volumes more of YOU than it does of us.



The issue is that "beliefs" are not based on science, pure and simple. They are not things that are subject to being proven using the scientific method. Many people believe that there are things beyond what science is capable of proving. And it really comes down to speculation. Doesn't mean it's bad or that anyone should be demeaned for it.

Those who base their world view only on things that are scientifically proven have a completely valid point of view and their reasons are understandable. "Beliefs" are really philosophy, not science.

As far as bubbles go, everybody lives in their own self-created bubble. Nobody is capable of seeing "reality" as it truely exists. We all must create it inside of our own brains, and our 5 senses are pretty limited. We like to think of "our" reality as completely objective, but it's more subjective than we might think. Our brains make a tremendous amount of assumptions that we aren't even aware of.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Peter
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby Peter » 23 Mar 2013 07:28

our 5 senses are pretty limited


I dont agree, i think our 5 senses are absolutly great if we use them for what they are intended - to provide input so we can see, hear, listen, taste and touch. LOL I have got that bit wrong but anyway when we start pushing beliefs I dont think they have anything to with our senses unless we attempt to pervert the imput to suit our beliefs. I can believe carrots are good for health and you can believe they are not, that wont get us into a lot of trouble as its not a deeply embedded part of us but if we get to religion we are generally too biased to even listen to another opinion, it just polarizes people, we wont use the sense that could help us debate(just listen) but fly off into some deeper realm that requires faith.

Anyway I dont think our senses have much to do with this at all
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: What are your religious views?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 23 Mar 2013 19:17

The point I was trying to make about our 5 senses is that our understanding of reality is based on the measurements we make, which are incomplete, whether with our 5 senses or with more sophisticated equipment.

We create a model of our physical world by making measurements, experiments, etc. but it's not complete and is not the same as the actual physical reality that it describes. I agree with Steven Hawking's concept of "model dependant realism" which states the model we create for reality by default becomes the reality itself but they are separate things. We need the model in order to make predictions and solve problems, etc. It is essential. But just because we understand the model, it doesn't mean we understand reality as it really exists.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus


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