Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

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lucidinthe sky
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Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby lucidinthe sky » 12 Apr 2013 05:28

This is the afterlife debate thread. Those who wish to debate whether the afterlife exists or not can do that here.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Jack Reacher
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Jack Reacher » 12 Apr 2013 05:41

Nice.

I think on of the key ideas for discussing this is to first discuss what it is to be a person, whether a person is purely physical or is also non physical, and the next step is to clearly discuss the difference between physical and non physical. Atm im about to head out but il post more later.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby lucidinthe sky » 12 Apr 2013 06:12

As far as I know, from the scientific viewpoint, everything is physical or exists as part of the physical universe. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Summerlander » 12 Apr 2013 11:48

No, you are absolutely right lucid. Of course, one can always argue that science can only meaure the physical world and that there are non-local metaphysical realities for the soul to inhabit. This would be one argument for leaving the doors open to an afterlife...

But like Reacher said, we'll take steps. What does science say that we are as far as it can tell? Chemicals. Apparently we are made up of individual cells that work together as a whole. They form organs (the most complex being the brain) and organs make up the organism. Science says that apparently the living cells as a whole make up the living being - in the brain, in all its complexity, consciousness evolves and the sense of self ( a strong illusion) has long been established.

But there is more to be said (thanks for the thread lucid btw) I will definitely post more when I have more time. There is a link that I will include that will help me and Jack Reacher to advance this discussion. In the meantime, it would be a good idea for believers in the afterlife to put forth their arguments.

Cool thread.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby lucidinthe sky » 12 Apr 2013 17:37

Glad people are using this thread.

Actually, I'm going to suggest a new category called "Dream Science" or something like that so we can have purely scientifc discussions there. There is a lot of interesting research that has already been done and much we can all learn. If anyone reading is interested in the idea, let the forum owners know.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Jack Reacher
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Jack Reacher » 12 Apr 2013 21:22

To say everything is physical is a step to far though, now we have to ask what you mean by everything (and you realise you are just saying everything that is physical is physical :D )

When I think non-physical, I don't think dream world or anything like that, I think purely abstractly, things like ideas and numbers an other intangible concepts are non-physical.

Everything else must be physical, also I think everything that is we expererience must also be physical otherwise we w ouldn't be ble to experience it.

As for an afterlife, I believe we live on only in memory or in spirit, the thing that you are now that is conscious is only supported by your physical body, I can't see how it could exist in an abstract space.


Though a few huge mysteries that will puzzle me for the rest of my life will continue to leave me open minded, such as where did the universe come from, and how can anything exist at all? This sorta makes you go beyond and ask what it truely means for something to be physical.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby lucidinthe sky » 13 Apr 2013 00:24

You're right. Of course there are non-physical things, such as ideas, thoughts, dreams, etc. just to name a few. So then non-physical things wouldn't have any physical properties. For example, thoughts do not have mass. Maybe our consciousness is one of those non-physical things. But can the non-physical things such as thought exist without the physical thing, the human body? A scientist would say it can't.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Worldenterer1
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Worldenterer1 » 13 Apr 2013 00:33

It simply does not exist.

Science has proven that the body depends on the brain to live and be conscious. They've done this by showing that chemicals flow to certain parts of the brain, and also that electrical signals are sent to certain areas when certain thoughts are occurring.

If the brain is decomposed and dead, it cannot operate. If it cannot operate, you cannot sense anything. Absolute lifelessness.

Certain conditions like amnesia or Alzheimer's completely ravage a person's memory. Other degenerative conditions like Huntington's Syndrome will cause the brain to simply quit working after time. People will forget loved ones, who they are themselves, and in the case of Huntington's syndrome, they forget how to do anything at all. Those are just conditions when somebody is alive. Think of what death would do.
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Summerlander
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Summerlander » 13 Apr 2013 02:43

To me life is like music.

Music can convey feelings and emotions. Music can express melody and a sense of harmony. From music we can derive all sorts of interpretations and meaning. We find it sublime.

But all that music conveys is illusory. To ask if illusions are physical is the wrong question because what we think is there isn't there in the first place. It's a matter of perception.

Realistically, music is nothing but a composition of meaningless notes. I doubt any of us can derive much meaning from a single note, produced from a unique vibration.

The analogy is very fitting here. In a similar way, a quark, an atom or even a single molecule is not enough to convey a splendorous and baffling reality. A single cell is not enough to give rise to thoughts, consciousness or a sense of self - the greatest and most elaborate brain porkie.

Over a hundred years of brain science will not be enough to unravel what nature has managed to accomplish over millions and millions of years. We can know more about what is happening light-years away than what is going on inside our heads.

On the universe. We know a big bang started it over a dozen billion years ago because the afterglow evidence is still visible in our skies (we're lucky). But it is very likely that our universe is one of many, like a tiny bubble popping in a sizzling megaverse expanse.

The real beginning of everything that truly exists must have happened so incomprehensibly long ago that all traces of it are long gone. Because of this, we will never know how it all started.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Je-Je
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Re: Does the afterlife exist at all? Debate that here.

Postby Je-Je » 13 Apr 2013 08:51

I have found a film about after life watch; ''what dreams may come trailer'' ;)
I discovered Lucid Dream by watching the film Inception(2012)
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