Astral projection

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 12 Nov 2011 19:59

fuzzylogic wrote:I am the most level headed guy you'd ever want to meet.


Or you like to think so. :|

fuzzylogic wrote:Up to about 2 years ago I "knew" life was about being born, living, dying and then fading to black. I had no evidence to the contrary.


But that is the thing though...death isn't necessarily fading to black...more like fading to nothingness. You won't see black, you won't even see...nor think, hear or feel anything. No concepts, no experience. You won't even know you are dead. There is no you. What was once "you" (all the cells working together and which made up your organism and created many illusions) is gone, detached, decaying or pulverised and gone to become something else.

fuzzylogic wrote:How can you make the statement above in the face of the many hundreds of "eye witness" accounts to the contrary? How is it valid to simply ignore these cases and make that sort of blanket statement that there is "nothing to suggest" ?


I'll tell you how...
Experience happens in the mind whether you are awake or asleep. The mind is more than capable of playing many tricks. Someone could spike my drink with psychedelic drugs and I could tell you all about how taps spoke to me when I went to the loo to wash my hands and yet I would not be able to prove it. I'd be a witness and clearly, in this case, one who saw something that didn't really happen.

I don't dismiss their experiences...I dismiss their biased interpretations. And then we have the gimmicky famous cases...

Occam's razor, my friend. As I said, there is "nothing to suggest". There is only the suggestion of indulgence in fantasy - a trait that many of us keep from childhood. :roll:

fuzzylogic wrote:A few hundred years ago many said there was, "nothing to suggest" that the Earth


Sure, sure! But that is a different case. It is also true that humanity has been clinging to spirituality and religion for many millennia and the main culprits are "visions of the night". Sleep paralysis, vivid dreams, lucid dreams, nightmares, you name it... All characterised by brain states. Who knows, maybe this time people need to realise that there is more to the brain than they think and such visions are the product of a biological supercomputer rebooting itself and not...ahem...glimpses of a spirit world. ;)

fuzzylogic wrote:The double slit experiment shouldn't work: but it does, every time. So although we can point no scientific basis for the "strange" occurrence of quantum entanglement, there is overwhelming proof of its existence.


You see, I know you said you are not a New Ager...but this is exactly what a New Ager would do. They try to use quantum mechanics to back up their claims. All particles in our local universe are probably, to different degrees, quantum entangled and the result of this was probably the interaction of all from the Big Bang. But this doesn't mean it's paranormal forces at work. Just a mechanism that we are yet to understand. If we imagine our local universe to be like an expanded cell or even part of an atom of some sort, then it is not so strange to think that it is all connected by PHYSICAL forces that we are yet to detect. We still have to shed some light on dark matter and all that shebang.

Perhaps we don't understand it because we are part of it and human logic cannot encompass the so-called quantum logic. It may be just the way of things. It is not proof of an afterlife or the existence of an omniscient being we call "god". The quantum entanglement business is only "strange" if we think of it as strange. The double-slit seems to play upon observation and again there is nothing to it. Like gravity (something that we don't fully understand), measurement collapses one possible and viable outcome pending the circumstances. Perhaps magnetic fields from living organisms who are being observant and analytical affect the behaviour of photons and electrons...

All states have the potential to become but the relevant one manifests according to observation. Perhaps the outcome is dependent upon brain states when a measurement is being made. Like a sound sensor that flashes when you speak. No need for magic at work. Here's an interesting video which is in direct contradiction of Mr. Campbell's theoretical model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYacDt0m3yY&feature=related

It could also be just the measurement and the possible interference of the device and not if someone is observing or recording what is going on. There is no need for recording - it happens anyway. To state that the information is already available is pure conjecture (as Campbell does and I took part in a discussion about this quite recently in a Facebook group). My friend Claudio pointed out some of Campbell's errors by emailing him and after a brief discussion Mr. Campbell decided to ignore him:

http://soprano.com/QM/

I'm going to make a vehement statement here and you can all agree, disagree or agree to disagree. Thomas Campbell and his horde are modern New Agers. They use different terminology and are more adherent of quantum physics in order to reinforce their beliefs in rebirth, parallel universes, past lives, spiritual realms and everything paranormal in general. Beware of cunning scientists working in the shadows! :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 13 Nov 2011 14:01

Summerlander-

All good points.

re- occam's razor... Yes I am quite familiar. It is the basic point of my example about the solar system.

And 60 years ago it was clear that Einstein had it right. He disagreed with what he called "the strange behaviour" of quantum and Occam's razor was probably used at that time by many to validate his position. And it turns out he didn't have it right at all.

The only thing other I would like to clarify is the example I used about quantum mechanics. My reference to it shouldn't be construed as a way to explain the underlying mechanism behind a non physical reality, it was used as an example of the fact that we don't understand all that we see. I could have just as easily pointed the the Higgs boson phenomenon and how (we think) it is related to the mass property of particles (strings).

So my point was/is that seemly"impossible" things do happen. And although experiencing a completely non-physical environment may seem contrary to our current scientific model (just as quantum entanglement is) it may none-the-less be a part of our universe which we may simply have not yet figured out or even acknowledged. In the case of quantum we have "officially" acknowledged it because the rest of quantum behaviour is, although completely bazaar and non-intuitive, is absolutely verifiable.

I am still not understanding how you can with a simple wave of the hand ignore the many documented cases of people who know in great detail their previous life. I know it doesn't fit your model of how the world works, but is seems all to convenient to me that it can be dismissed without a hesitation.I would feel more satisfied if you were to explain how in any particular case, you would explain the occurrence any other way. By commenting without knowing the details, you are just (I am afraid to see) remaining purposefully ignorant.

The reason I am willing to consider a very strange possibility is because I am not willing to ignore all the data supporting it. It just doesn't make rational sense to do so (in my opinion)

See this link for a good example of how I would support my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg&feature=player_detailpage

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful explanation of your thought process. I relate strongly to it as it was exactly my opinion before I decided to consider all the available evidence.

Be well.

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 13 Nov 2011 22:29

You keep giving me past examples to justify your statements such as the one where people had a different view of the Earth and the universe and the one where Einestein was wrong in some of his assumptions but, the truth is, it doesn't mean that the same case is applicable in the matter that we discuss now.

I've researched reincarnation and I have discussed it countless times. There is no evidence for it whatsoever. I don't understand why so many people cling to this belief and claim that it can't be any other way when there is no proof. I will point out many of the possible and more mundane explanations that believers dismiss:

The amazing complexity and inner workings of the brain which is still quite elusive. Coincidences. Cryptomnesia. Genetic memory. Etc.

You can argue that some people have had very specific experiences with dates, times, places, which were then researched and apparently verified. But, we don't know if they were already unconsciously aware of the details of said person before a so-called past life memory comes to light. There are some remarkable cases of cryptomnesia which reflect the amazing potential of the human mind. Have you researched them besides reincarnation?

We also possess genetic memory. We are born with certain memories. Some of them quite basic and inherited: a baby intinctively searches for a nipple, an animal knows it needs to get on its feet immediately etc etc. - and then we have the more far-fetched collective consciousness: are memories stored in the brain or are they extracted from electromagnetic fields that pervade our world (like Rupert Sheldrake's M fields)?

I more readily accept telepathy, which seems very feasible, rather than reincarnation. Note that I am not stating here that there is no afterlife. I am merely stating that it is more probable that when we die, we will be no more alive than the dead skin flake I'm removing from my head right now.

I'm not dismissive and ignorant my friend. I've discussed this topic so many times and I have considered so many angles. I used to have the same opinion as you but I am very fickle and not one to cling to beliefs because they please me or because I am satisfied that they are good enough of an explanation. The Dead Poets Society is one of my favourite films and the character played by Robin Williams best illustrates my character. I have gone through many paradigm shifts and at the moment, this is my perspective. I also refrain from using oxymoronic statements like "seemingly 'impossible' things do happen".

Your perspective that I seem to conveniently dismiss the fantastical is justified paranoia from the probable fact that you were unaware of my research and countless past discussions on this. Make no mistake about it, I am not favouring explanations over others and I don't hold a model. On the contrary, I say all models are biased by human perspective and logic and there is no real reliable theory of everything. All experience, for once, derives from sensory input and the thoughts we have. Let's not forget that some animals get more out of reality than what we do with all our senses. Their worlds can be brighter. In the end, nobody knows what the world is really like. All one can do is go by personal experience and this is where personal experience has lead me.

Purposefully ignorant are those who wholeheartedly embrace the theoretical rather than the empirical. Thanks for the debate! ;)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 14 Nov 2011 03:35

I am also very weary of present experiances leading to mystical beliefs. What happens here and now and in the dream world or waking world or somewhere between is important. Taking that experiance and adding cultural beliefs and wanting to believe in something just wont cut it for me as that is not proof but merely making something fit.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 14 Nov 2011 07:43

one question I have always had about past life is when did they start?, at one time there were very few people on the planet and for a long time only thousands so when did we start having past lives to recall and does everyone have one? or just a seclect few. Are they our past lives or simply memories of a past life so we could all have some common ones and share, but then who do the past lives belong to

Peter
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 14 Nov 2011 12:11

Exactly! In fact, more than one person can remember being Cleopatra or Henry VIII. Isn't it funny how we can have different memories in dreams and are able to assume different identities? And what about multiple personality disorders? What about delusions and hallucinations (particularly those where living people believe to be fictitious characters)? We can be anyone we want if the mind believes so.

In fact, in hypnotic and meditative trances, a person is able to understand what it's like to not know things, to let go of concepts - to even forget their own names! I have gone to knowing and not knowing a simple concept during a meditative state and was able to go back and forth like a switch.

Trust me folks, when I say that this past life memory business is more likely to be the concoction of unconscious imagination, false memory, dreams etc. etc.

Beware of so-called validations too. So many people believe in this and there are many reincarnation cases out there that I am not surprised that coincidences happen (that is the nature of things because if they didn't happen, then it would actually be weird). Also, biased people are likely to see more associations than a sceptic or a pragmatist.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 20 Nov 2011 20:00

In fact, more than one person can remember being Cleopatra or Henry VIII


I guess it's up to me to continue to be the voice of the other side of this dialogue.

Can you please provide the names of the people that you claim to remember being Cleopatra? Just curious if these are documented cases or a bit of myth.

I have read hundreds of accounts of past life experiences performed in controlled settings, and I have read exactly zero that involve Henry the 8th or Cleopatra. Admittedly It's easy to scoff at this stuff. but as long as your scoffing references fictitious examples, how do you expect a curious open minded person to consider your POV?

I'm not suggesting that anyone must actually read any of the books on the subject, but if they did they would see that the question about the number of souls and how that relates to past human lives is discussed in quite a lot of detail by many people who have studied the subject for years.

I would suggest that anyone who is open minded enough to consider the possibility of past lives and a soul that persists through them, read some of the actual accounts. Don't view much of the comments on this forum as anything more than one point of view to consider. There is a lot out there on this topic.

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 21 Nov 2011 17:59

It doesn't matter if there are cases of people who "remember" being Cleopatra, Henry VIII or Peter Pan. It doesn't matter who they claim to be. That's not the point I am trying to make here. Hell, I could have used well known examples from Roy Stemman's body of research such as the case of American WWII hero General 'Blood and Guts' Patton (Battle of the Bulge) who curiously recalled a past life as being one of Caesar's legionnaires. But who hasn't heard of Caesar? They said he carried his past life's skills into the next life but couldn't he have imagined himself to have been a warrior (again) at that time?

There are certainly many works published on the subject and for a good reason: it gives people hope and therefore it sells. There is no proof whatsoever that there is such a thing as a "soul". If reincarnation is true, fuzzy, then I ask you this - why is it that it still hasn't been proven? Read my words carefully, granted that there is evidence to suggest that it is so from the perspective of believing that consciousness survives death but...there is no proof.

If you want, I welcome you to show me one convincing case. I'll welcome you and I promise I'll be as open-minded as I can. I'll let you in on something, too. I subscribe to Buddhism. But not the Buddhism that has been moulded over millennia in order to have some sort of control and influence over people with such ideas as rebirth and karma. No. I imagine that Buddhism started out in a purer form where the Buddha realised that there is no self and that nirvana would be reached by simply dying. As you know, nirvana is the cessation of being. A departure from conceptual reality if you like.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
Posts: 89
Joined: 09 Oct 2011 13:30

Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 23 Nov 2011 14:01

You are partially right: there is no "proof" that the soul exists. My question is: what would you consider "proof"?

As far as I can tell, there is no proof that dreams exist, or imagination, or hate, or love, or super strings. I throw in the latter because unlike all the previous examples, physicists believe they can eventually prove their existence because (they think) they are a part of our physical reality. All the former examples aren't. An how would you possibly unequivocally "prove" something which isn't in the physical?

OK so to prove something where tangible physical evidence is elusive, we need to provide verifiable facts, and lots of them. Now the problem is: one could always argue that there is a hidden conspiracy where the facts which are presented as unknowable by one or more parties, is actually known before hand. Since it is impossible for anyone to prove that the conspiracy didn't happen, we are back to where we started, aren't we?

Bottom line: without physical evidence (which is impossible in this case because with very few exceptions, most feel that bringing something physical back from a non-physical experience is impossible) proof beyond a shadow of a doubt may not be possible, but let me do the best I can.

So yes- I would be happy to provide an example case. As a matter of fact I already have earlier in this thread. It is one case out of 20 that was published in a book called 20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Dr Ian Stevenson.

See the links below...

Discussion of this book- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg&feature=player_embedded#!

An excerpted example from the book- http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm#swarnlata

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 24 Nov 2011 00:23

I am right about the soul: there is no proof...

Dreams are as universal as waking perception and as real as the axiom that an individual human being is aware that others think too. Besides, brain activity changes and correlates with differing states of consciousness. This is observable in labs and confirmed by subjects. Imagination can breed creativity and love and hate are emotions as well as anthropological concepts.

Lucid dream correlates have been found. I can't see why thoughts can't be quantum mechanical in nature, and, like a supercomputer, the brain generates the illusion of other worlds. After all, it also generates waking experience! How do you watch videos and images on a computer screen? How does a computer construct realistic images and figures that resemble what we see in the real world? There is no need for non-physical planes of existence. Let me emphasise that one should not dismiss the complexity of the brain...

The brain is a three-pound supercomputer with 100 billion nerve cells and more connections than there are stars in the known universe. If all neural connections between brain cells were laid out end to end they would reach to the moon and back!

In essence, all the examples that you mentioned as not being a part of physical reality actually are. They are a product resultant from certain interactions within a physical system - otherwise correlates would not be found to attest to this. Before you can claim that there are things which aren't in the physical reality, you must define what physical is. Apparently, even the physical world as perceived by us (formulated in our minds) is an illusion (otherwise different species would experience the same thing) and all that exists is the quantum world (which is weird and misunderstood enough).

Physicists are currently still struggling with this and part of the problem is that we can only see what happens within the system. The assumption of another reality underlying this one is yet to be found so most physicists are content with the notion that self-awareness arose from an emergent complexity from all the entropy and associations between particles formed.

Whatever the case, I don't like string theory. IMO scientific theories are tripe and biased by human logic. I like to wait and see those verifiable results especially if they can be replicated time and again beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm very pragmatic. Until I see one telling me that consciousness survives physical death...sorry. We can only really know when we finally depart from this life...or not know...

Look at Dr Ian Stevenson's compiled work and tell me that none of my proposed mundane explanations could possibly describe them. How do you rule out cryptomnesia, genetic memory or even exaggeration/sensationalism to sell books? I go back to my point...where is the proof and why is it that reincarnation is not accepted as dreams are? And what happened to troglodytes coming back to life? :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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