Astral projection

Discuss paranormal activity linked with sleep and dreams, such as out of body experiences, astral projection and psychic dreams.
fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 24 Nov 2011 13:25

Summerlander:

OK you're loosing me here....

We can certainly talk about the nature of reality, and whether we have "proof" of dreams. It's interesting that your standards are so high when it comes to proof of reincarnation or a deeper non-physical reality, but so low when it comes to proof of dream actually occurring. Also you have a convenient way of redefining the words hate, love etc to fit your particular point. That's OK but hardly the point of the last email, which was to provide an actual case study for you to read and respond to.

I thought you said that if I provided one, you would take a closer look at an example and respond?

How does cryptomnesia apply here? It is all about forgotten memories. How would the girl in the cited case "forget" a memory it was impossible for her to have in the first place? This is inapplicable.

Next- are you claiming that genetic memory exists? What is the mechanism of operation? And more importantly, how does it apply in this case where the girl has no genetic connection to the family from which she claims to have come? Once again, inapplicable.

Sorry- arm waving, and using $50 words doesn't build a logical case. You have failed to give the readers any reasoned refutation of the example I pointed you to, other than "someone made it up to sell books". ie- you are falling back on the lame old conspiracy argument that anyone who has limited or no facts, or a reasonable argument would make.

The bottom line is: for those who have already made up their mind, there is no proof that is strong enough. I point to the first sentence of your email as my evidence that you have already made up yours.

I'm surprised that you can't at least admit that these cases (which are many in number) are hard to explain and given our lack of scientific understanding on these topics, are truly mysterious. Your unwillingness to speak to the facts of the case I've provided are indicative to me that:
1- you have no reasonable explanation
2- that you'd rather not hurt your argument by admitting so

I'm afraid that a where we differ most is that I am willing to admit that our current understanding of the world is incomplete and doesn't fit the facts in front of us.

I'm willing to consider possibilities that include theories and practices that have been in place for thousands of years. And which, based on my personal experience merit further investigation.

You however seem to be satisfied that if you stick to the current modern scientific "dogma" which has no real theories that explain the facts, and hope someday someone will be able to prove you right. And in the mean time, your defence against the crazy "New Agers" is to throw out unsubstantiated stories, ridicule, and to respond to documented claims with inapplicable rationalisations.

I guess we can let those who read this thread draw their own conclusions.

Happy to discuss further if you have more applicable to say about the case at hand.
Last edited by fuzzylogic on 26 Nov 2011 13:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 24 Nov 2011 18:10

I am still reading this one. It seems that the debate has gone way left and way right to prove a point about now.

I still come back to simple stuff. (no big words here) it is possible -yes. It is probable - ? I dont know.

Experiance is not proof as the ream where we are seeking the answers is not really explored or really understood. We dont know the limits or what we are even exploring. As far as the dream state, OBE, LD etc is concerned I can at times beleive that it is possible and at times think that it is not to have a past. I have had snaps of the future and so why not the past.

Lets turn this around and tell us Fuzzy what would cause you to have doubt - from a personal point of view and Summerlander - what is the least that would cause you to think that just maybe there is an element of truth to the claims. This does not make it litteral or a given fact just opens the mind to a possibility and none of us would be dreaming or posting if we did not have mind embrace and explore LD
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 24 Nov 2011 18:49

Peter:
What would make me have doubt?

I have doubt now. :?

Unlike Summerlander, I am not convinced of anything at this point.

However I'm leaning toward a spiritual power that is "hidden" underneath reality for many reasons...

Religion and god doesn't fit the bill as it is is way to ritualistic and arbitrary and exclusional to make any sense to me. Because of her religion, my sister thinks I'm going to hell because I don't go to her church, and my friend who is "born again" thinks my sister and I (and everyone else) are going to hell because we don't read his version of the bible, and on and on. It's crazy and I honestly don't believe if there is any entity whatsoever lurking under the covers, that it cares what church we go to. Funny thing is: my guess is, all the major religions are probably based on the same spiritual system and the same sorts of experiences as my belief system. The difference is: I think all of these systems are parallel roads to the same place, whereas they think there is only one correct road and the others were created by the devil and go straight to hell. Foolishness.

So what "evidence" do I have? Only the many many thousands of accounts of OBE, NDE, LBL, and paranormal events through the ages, for 7000 years, back to before the Egyptians. More specifically the hundreds of modern cases of "life between life" accounts that are amazingly consistent.

My current view of the world is there is a non-physical reality that is the nexus for many (all?) of the otherwise unexplained spiritual events that have been reported for thousands of years and have been unexplained because the methodology for studying such events didn't exist until the last several decades.

This belief isn't born out of fear or the desire to believe something... It's born out of a desire to want to understand how the world works. The belief system I have now fits the facts and accounts that are on the table.

Stubbornly hanging on to the scientific findings and theories which ignore much of the data seems irrational to me. Keep in mind. I'm an engineer. My life and career are built on the "scientific method", so I don't choose to take this approach lightly.

However I'm starting to be of the mind that there are inherent limitations of a rigid scientific approach. This is one reason why consciousness is not much better understood now than when Frued studied it almost 100 years ago.

Most important thing to me is this-
Although I'm willing to listen to what people tell me in (books and forums), I want to personally experience anything I buy into. This is why I'm currently spending time learning to OBE. So I can see and discover for myself and speak from personal experience. My desire is to confirm my personal belief with personal experience. And at that point if I can't "prove" anything to anyone, I'm fine with that, as saving the world wasn't my point anyway.

As a matter of fact, in my current model of spirituality (which I am trying to confirm through LD/OBE observation), the world and the people in it don't need to be saved at all... Each person and their spirit will be just fine as they will work through their spiritual growth on their own individual timetables for as long as it takes. Sounds nice. Don't know if it is true. It may be strange, but unlike religion, at least it makes sense to me, and is logical, and is consistent with the available information.
Last edited by fuzzylogic on 26 Nov 2011 13:45, edited 4 times in total.

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 24 Nov 2011 20:29

I agree with the context - religion is a copout in my mind as it takes away any personal responsibility and dumbs people down when they get too hung up in the beliefs.

I think there is a power or energy without doubt but that it exists inside and we all own it and can tap into it and there is no need to give the credit to anything else.

I have also never said that I disagree with the recalled experiences only the breaking down of them to a reason - we have this insane need to have a reason for something and it can only ever be fitted into what we know not what we don’t know. I tend to explore like a child and have no want to explain as the answers tend to come in time.

I do believe there is an underlying reality or overarching reality that is untapped but at times connected with and experienced but refrain from fitting it into any model that exists now.
As far as OBE etc is concerned I have had hundreds of these experiences and am fully aware of my energy body, how it feels and how it leaves - not where it goes :-), can’t explain that yet. I have had many profound dream experiences and many in daily life as well. Events that are well beyond coincidence and will give two examples just for interest.

One - years before my first two children were born and before I knew what a LD was but after a lifetime of lucid dreaming I met two small girls on the beach in front of my house in a LD. I asked them who they were and they laughed at me and said don’t be silly, we are your daughters. I told my partner this and said we would have two girls and their hair colour. I was correct on both counts. What this proves I don’t know but it’s interesting.

Two - A small event from daily life and one of many similar events. I was on the phone to an artist and he was going to paint for me, he asked me for a number for the painting and between 1 and 10. I picked one but had the thought that I really wanted 13 as it is my lucky number. About an hour later I was on my bike out riding and I go past road markers, 10 -11- 12 - and then 13 is snapped and on the ground just waiting for me to pick it up.14 - 15 & 16 were all ok. A nice story - all true but how relative to anything I don’t know.

I have had a lot of these events occur and believe there is a connection between everything and all realms but don’t understand the connection yet - I will continue to explore all realms and hope to keep these sorts of dialogues going as well as it is a great exercise to express thoughts
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 25 Nov 2011 12:28

So Peter:

We seem to agree that there definitely is what I would call a universal non-physical system (we might call it a "spiritual" one) that we can all tap into. The indication of this is the many many cases where people have experienced it. And their "proof" is that they have discovered information they could otherwise never have known. You have given some possible examples. I have many examples I can share, several from my own life experience. I've even gotten a recent account of one on this very forum where a poster got information from a friend's deceased girl friend.

I assume you are familiar with the whole life between life model as described by Michael Newton and his his work.

-For those who don't know, it talks about the fact that each of us has an eternal soul which in some fashion permanently exists in this spiritual system with other souls and that we experience growth through living multiple lives and learning about those lives in the time between lives. And over these learning cycles the soul reaches higher levels of assistance-

So my question is this-
If you are familiar with this idea, and you already think the spiritual system exists, and you have read the many accounts of people who have described the system and the LBL experience, how do you explain it if you don't believe it? (BTW- it's OK w/me for one to "stay on the fence" and neither explain OR believe it)

Are these people all expressing the same thing because of some cultural bias? (problem is there is no cultural bias toward reincarnation in the USA) or is there some other explanation?

I'm not trying to make some huge quantum leap here. I'm just trying to sort out why I wouldn't believe that particular part of their story, when I believe the rest. And if that part of their story is true, it makes a big difference (at least to me) in explaining how and why I'm here and how I might approach my life and how I might view my whole existence. Afterall, if true, this one aspect of reality tells me that I'm in a continuum and not a single life event, and that makes it a very big deal.

So why do I ask this? Because for me, investigating this possibility could potentially be the most important activity of my life. This isn't some silly magic trick to argue about on the Internet. It's way too important to blithely ignore while I go back to watching some mindless reality TV show.

As I remain open minded about this, I find that there is a lot of experiential and informational evidence justifying continued serious investigation, at least on my personal part. Which is what I intend to do. And discussing it like this allows me to test the logic of my approach and keep myself true to, if not a pure scientific method, at least a measure of intellectual honesty and objectivity

Best...

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Summerlander
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Summerlander » 27 Nov 2011 01:46

I could say an awful lot about the "inapplicable" statements above, but I will finalise this post with something simpler in regards to lucid dreaming and so called OOBEs.

First though, let me point out that science does use theory in an attempt to explain the nature of reality: quantum theory for once is a bloody zoo.

Secondly, I think you misread my post, I am not certain of anything and don't even subscribe to any dogma (this reading came from you). I will say though, that, when science is based on empirical evidence, it is the best thing we've got.

You, on the other hand, fuzzylogic, choose to believe in a non-physical reality when it is only theoretical and belief-centric. How can you scoff at religious beliefs and yet believe in something that you have no proof of?

To finalise, and this goes to everyone: belief and expectation...the mind makes it real. Want to see "spirit realms", the "dead" or even "aliens" and that is exactly what your mental "playdoh" will form for you. Want to relive a past life and voila...a concoction is born. Want to see God (and you should try this one fuzzy) and it will only be your idea of what God would/could be like.

I rest my case. :roll:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 27 Nov 2011 02:30

I scoff at religion because it is inconsistent and makes no logical sense. It simply feels fundamentally invalid to me.

I still don't think you've really addressed the example I gave you. That's fine, it's a hard one to refute.

I totally agree with your comments regarding the fact that the mind sees what it expects to see. If you expect to see aliens, or God,, you do. That sort of thing is why I'm still on the fence about this stuff. I'm thinking that maybe this sort of thing is the result of the brain/mind interpreting what it experiences and this subjectivity introduces an aspect of bias into the system. Problem is since this is all experiential, you can't remove the subjective bias from the equation so you are stuck with the fact that this will muck up the data.

Sorry- I must have misinterpreted your comments to mean that you were convinced in your opinion that science has the answers. I definitely think this is not the case. There's lots of talk about conscious events happening every 30-40 milliseconds where quantum events are resolved. But there is little or no real substance to theory. I don't think science has a clue about the nature of reality or of consciousness specifically. And given the scientific approach, as compared to the subject matter, this maybe this should be expected.

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 27 Nov 2011 04:30

So my question is this-
If you are familiar with this idea, and you already think the spiritual system exists, and you have read the many accounts of people who have described the system and the LBL experience, how do you explain it if you don't believe it? (BTW- it's OK w/me for one to "stay on the fence" and neither explain OR believe it)

Are these people all expressing the same thing because of some cultural bias? (problem is there is no cultural bias toward reincarnation in the USA) or is there some other explanation?


Back again. I still maintain that we have our experiences and we can’t deny that. Let’s put aside all the posturing and copy catting that may go on. That leaves each of us with what we have experienced. I don’t deny that we these are real to us. I still have no idea if this happens outside of our own minds - maybe we are stand alone units with a power source and we generate our own reality and all see world in different ways - all our experiences are internal and there is no connections outside of our minds.

While this is a little unlikely if you were to think that you are simply like a little battery or single unjoined power unit and there is no afterlife, no past life and really in some ways no life except what our senses generate and our own reality I suspect you would not want to believe it. It’s a lonely thought and not one many would want to believe and to me that is at the centre of all the reasoning - which it is driven by a need to believe in something greater than what we are instead of accepting that we have life and are here now.

In someone that has lost a limb they can or will still have phantom limbs, there are real and part of the body model generated by the mind to give us a sense of self and without this we are simply floppy meat. It drives all movement and without it we would be a jellyfish. There are lots of accounts of this fact, I think that the body in the dream world and obe exits is this energy released to a dream state and that again it all happens in our mind.

I had one LD a long time back and I was in the dreamscape and had full control. There was an interesting point where the walls of the world I was in were being pushed in and out like elastic - this was my cat nudging against me in my sleep. So much for leaving the body.

But I still suspect that the input may be at times external but the action takes place in the mind of the dreamer.

For some insights read The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

fuzzylogic
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Re: Astral projection

Postby fuzzylogic » 27 Nov 2011 14:17

But if we are individual units with no interconnections, how do we explain the many cases of knowledge being passed between individuals with no common physical or genetic connection, over long distances and even large gaps of time? Isn't this potentially indicative of a shared pool of knowledge?

If this does occur, some system must exist that stores this information until the new individual is alive and ready to accept it. Does this need to exist in a "spirit world"? No. But that is one explanation. And it happens to match what many people have said they have seen/experienced.

These cases combined with the many cases of hypnotic and juvenile past life and LBL recollections keep pointing me back to a tiered model where we have only individual experiences at one level, at at other levels we all access the same information. And at all levels our experience is realised via our physical senses and brain, and are therefore subject to an unavoidable level of interpretation. From a pure science perspective, it is this interpretation that may cause much the difficulty since it skews all of the data, makes it hard to correlate, and makes it look unreliable (which perhaps it is).

Also the only additional thing to consider with phantom limbs is that perhaps it isn't the brain that is "creating" the limb, but the fact that the associated non-physical limb still exists.

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Peter
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Re: Astral projection

Postby Peter » 27 Nov 2011 19:26

nearly back to where we started now. I still thinks its possible to to get all the past life memories from simply thinking, maybe not at a consious level but just simply thinking. Theres plenty of imput during the day to get all this. Tell me do the past lifers get their info from dreams of does it just come to them?

Phanton limbs - There are a lot of people with missing limbs that have no awareness of the limb until they put the artifical limb on and then the limb becomes part of them and away they go. Sometimes the limb wont go away and other times it wont appear until needed. So awake and consious they get ready for the day by putting the limb on and then filling it as the body model changes

All interesting
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


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