Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.
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HAGART
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Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby HAGART » 20 Aug 2013 20:59

Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Optical illusions are fascinating and demonstrate how our restless minds perceive the world around us.
You can see an image as appearing a certain way one moment, and then suddenly, see it in another way the next. Your eyes actually don't do a thing. You don't squint, you don't cross your eyes.... the only difference is a mental shift in how you see it. Your brain does the work; not your eyes.

In a lucid dream, your eyes are closed, so it is all your brain at work.

I attempted a lucid dream experiment last night, but before I get to that, enjoy some of these optical illusions.

chica_o_vieja.jpg
(Is it a mouth or a necklace?)
chica_o_vieja.jpg (14.44 KiB) Viewed 3115 times

Dalmatian illusion.png
See the dog (Dalmatian)?
Why? It's just a bunch of ink blots after all...
Our minds are programmed to find meaning in the meaningless.
Dalmatian illusion.png (201.63 KiB) Viewed 3114 times

ames-room.jpg
This is closer to my experiment.
Changing perspectives, in a seemingly otherwise, normal room.
ames-room.jpg (17.73 KiB) Viewed 3114 times



Now a little background into my experiment and what I was attempting.
My goal was to be in a house, and lucid dreaming, and then lay down on the floor next to a wall, with my feet touching the wall. Then, look up, and try to change my perception and how I 'see' everything and no longer think gravity is down behind my back, but instead, draws me to my feet the way my perspective is accustomed to when awake. Then I simply walk 'up' the wall as though it is horizontal.

Here's what actually happened:

I was lucid in a house and it was very real. I had a sense of body and looked down and could see one. I even stroked my chest to make sure and I could feel it. So it was a very realistic dream for me. I even had enough awareness to attempt my dream goal experiment. I wandered through the empty house, devoid of people, trying to find a wall suitable. But just like Murphy's Law, every wall was out to stop me and they all had copious pictures hanging on the walls all over the place. They were just black and white (mostly black with a black frame and indiscernible, so I ignored them), but I couldn't find a wall suitable to walk along without a picture being in the way. (My subconscious is out to stop me sometimes....)

Anyway, I finally found a good spot to try and there was a direct, uninterrupted line between the floor and the ceiling. I could narrowly avoid the framed picture to my left. I laid on my back, feet against the wall and tried to change my perspective and how I viewed the optical illusion of the dream and alter what is 'up' and what is 'down'. To my surprise, laying there, I actually started to get disorientated as though blood was rushing to my head and I was getting woozy and dizzy. I had to get back up.

Then an interesting thing happened. I just felt like turning the picture on it's side for some reason and when I did, every single, dark-framed, indiscernible picture in the entire room rotated in unison. I tilted my head to see the pictures as up and the room sideways and tried again, but still to no avail.


It ended soon after, and feel like I was stretching my mind too much. (It became non-lucid).
This time the LD won, but I won't give up. Just like anything you try in a LD or in life, you don't always get it the first try.

I believe it is possible to rotate your perspective in a dream and walk on the walls, and it just takes a mental shift of perspective as though you are viewing nothing more than an optical illusion.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby taniaaust1 » 22 Aug 2013 03:04

What a great post :)

I just remembered walking in a defying gravity way, it was thou during an AP where I'd got confused after I got out of my body of what was up and what was down after some floating around and summersalts. I often dont have my sight in at first so I'd moved blindly in one direction till I bumped into something which I thought was the wall but it wasnt, it was actually the ceiling. I had where the ceiling, wall and floor was very confused and wasnt walking along the floor like I thought I'd was.

I'll have to try this and see if I can do it at will and not accidently due to confusion. Knowing how stubborn my mind can be when it comes to doing not normal things, I suspect I'll probably not find it easy to do.

:lol: @ your subconsciousness hanging pictures all over your wall. It was out to defeat you from the start.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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deschainXIX
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby deschainXIX » 22 Aug 2013 04:50

I will definitely be trying this! And also coming up with my own optical lucid dreaming experiments! Genius idea, friend!
Well said.

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HAGART
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby HAGART » 22 Aug 2013 19:19

I've defied gravity too, but purely by accident.

One time I was flying (or floating) upward in a LD and I saw a building above me that was sideways. There was a balcony and as soon as I reached it and climbed on, gravity shifted to where the floor was and I walked inside as though it was like normal.

Another time I jumped off a tall ledge and before I hit the ground I was pulled sideways and I was stuck to the side of a building. I jumped again, but was only drawn to a nearby building as though gravity was now sideways.

I know it is possible to alter your perspective of gravity in a lucid dream. After all, gravity is just an illusion in the dream and we tend to think of it as below our feet because that is what we are accustomed to all day when awake.

But when you have a vivid dream with a 'dream body' it makes it harder to do radical things that go against the 'norm'. (In my opinion, but not impossible). With a dream body comes proprioception and sense of balance. Which is probably why I felt woozy and disorientated when I layed down and looked up trying to manipulate my orientation.

Another illusion I thought about several times in a LD is "Why is there 'distance'?" Why does something seem far away in relation to 'me'. I saw a tree in the distance once and thought, "Why can't I touch it and feel it?" Even if I don't actually see my arms stretch to reach it, I should be able to sense anything I see in the dream no matter how far away it is, because it is really not far away at all in my mind. Then I karate chopped the air and the tree was sliced and fell over even though it was about 50 feet away. I still had influence over it, even if I couldn't touch it from where I stood. Distance and height and gravity are all very convincing illusions in the dream and can be mastered, I bet.

If you've never tried it, try teleporting to a 'distant' place you see in a LD. You can zoom right in and be there in an instant sometimes. No need to walk or fly there.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby HAGART » 29 Aug 2013 23:56

Twice now, I have tried to walk on walls again in a lucid dream. And I was surprised....

IT WORKED! Sort of... let me explain.

So again, I laid on the floor, with my feet against the wall. I stared up at the ceiling and thought about 'distance' and perhaps the ceiling is really not that far away at all. Suddenly I felt like I 'zoomed in' and I was there on the ceiling and walking around. I felt like I was right side up, but the entire room was now upside down. At first I was disappointed because I had shot past the wall and was on the ceiling. That wasn't my intent.

I walked around for a bit and saw a window and decided to look outside to see if the sky was below me. I saw a city-scape at night, with tall buildings and several lights left on in the windows of the buildings just like a city at night, but the sky was still above and the buildings were below.

I tried again. (It's hard to explain without getting disoriented, but try to imagine.)
This time instead of looking up, I looked to my left and just leaped right in and started to walk. Now I was on the wall, but also felt like I was right side up and it was the room that had rotated. It was a very strange looking room, and the wall (now floor) was a metallic blue. I looked to my left, which should be 'down', and saw a sink with a faucet. It was embedded in the floor/wall (which is not the way it should be). With a wave of my hand I turned the faucet on from a distance and was amazed to see water come out and fall away from me to where the 'floor' should be. I then walked back onto the floor and saw a large table that was 'mattress-sized/shaped' on it's side with empty beer cans on it sideways, defying gravity. There were no table legs and it was resting on the floor on its side. I felt the need to knock the cans off and it was fun to make a mess, and I woke up soon after.

It didn't quite work out the way I had planned and was very disorienting. However, it was a fun experience and I recommend trying it.

My first attempt was a far more vivid dream where I felt like I had a dream body, but in this one, it was a DILD (I usually don't have a 'body' in DILD's) and not a OBE-get-out-of-bed type lucid dream. Perhaps that is why I found it easier. Whenever I have a strong sense of a dream body, I find it harder to go against my perception of physics in the dream. In my first attempt I was trying to walk up the wall with my 'feet' taking small steps, moving one at a time, and it would have been amazing, but in my second attempt, I just sort of 'teleported my point of view' to the walls and ceilings.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby Summerlander » 31 Aug 2013 10:52

What a great idea, Hagart, and I can see that happening to me in a lucid dream too. I once stretched my torso in such a way that I was able to touch the ceiling with my hands and the floor with my feet. I've thought about walking on walls but never got round to it. I think it's a good idea that we all try. We should experiment as oneironauts and draw our conclusions. Hagart, you're the leading scientist here! Great post and well done! :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby HAGART » 01 Sep 2013 00:03

One thing that happened last night:

I was lucid and on a street and saw a car ahead of me in the distance, so I reached out to grab it. To my surprise I was able to pick it up and it was only a foot long, like a toy car and I could feel it in my hand. I could have sworn it was a full sized car that only appeared small because it was in the distance, but then became simply a small car in my hands after I attempted to grab it. I wasn't even trying to change my perspective of distance, but it happened on its own.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby Summerlander » 01 Sep 2013 02:09

That can happen. I once took off and flew over a city. I had bird's eye view and decided to touch the vitreous roof of a particular building. Suddenly, it was like I had a giant hand or the city was now a miniature. My index dwarfed the roof. I removed my hand and began to descend in order to explore its interior. Somehow, as I approached to land, the building underwent a size reversion and soon I was inside it to mingle with some curious dream figures at a jamboree.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby HAGART » 01 Sep 2013 05:05

It's all relative to your sense of self in the dream and your POV (point of view).
For example, one time I saw an island I wanted to go to so I tried to teleport and zoom in to it. But when I did that, I couldn't tell if I was getting closer to it, or if it was coming closer to me. It's all perspective and relative.

Shrinking or growing my size is something I have never done before, but I think grasping and mastering the sense of illusion of your surroundings you sense and then comparing it the illusion of the body you have in the dream is the key, and will help with that.

I feel like I am on to something here....... (and why do we need a dream body at all...... that's the next step and another topic, but not there yet.)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Illusions and Changing Perspective (and Lucid Dreams)

Postby Summerlander » 01 Sep 2013 15:52

I agree. Comparing the dream body with the surroundings helps. I also think using grand illusions in lucid dreams can aid our battle against mental barriers that tend to arise from our periodical exposure to the mundane in waking life. I'd also add that such illusions of impossibility can provide shortcuts.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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