Religious Background

For all other chat which isn't directly related to lucid dreaming and the world of sleep and dreams.
Howard
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Howard » 28 Aug 2013 03:28

AceOfSpades wrote:Well if that's what you believe more power to you. One of the reasons I started this topic. I been noticing a lot of concepts that have been similar to one and other even in non religious beliefs like Atheism. Karma for example, Christanity calls it divine intervention and even scientists call it the classic quote "For every action there is an equal or opposite reaction." I wanted to know if anyone else noticed said connections.



Absolutely. Also consider, "You reap as you sow."....If you plant watermelon seeds you get watermelons, not grapes. This seems to hole true across the board.

Howard
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Howard » 28 Aug 2013 03:31

Peter wrote:
This is like the Astral body but perfected


there is a state and a point where you realize that even having an astral body ( I call it an energy body) in not even needed and there is a corresponding state to add to the experience at times. The use of a body is still too much like normal life and so it the projected world that goes with it so my 2 cents is to go deeper and get past the concept of a body.


I agree, but one needs some terms in order to express in words. Of course, at some point, words become meaningless and un necessary. Until thehn 'energy body', works for me.

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Peter
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Peter » 28 Aug 2013 06:20

Words are difficult as they are very limited, I use energy body for anything in the dream state but when say in a void experience there is no world just blackness but it is a place with its own energy then I have no body and no concept of me yet I have awareness. At that point I cant capture it with words and it all gets a bit dumb to try to explain as it is like nothing else at all.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Summerlander » 28 Aug 2013 16:20

Hagart, you have raised some important observations about dreaming and lucid dreaming. In fact, people can lose their sense of identity through amnesia too. Deep hypnotic trances can suggest that you are something or someone else too. How consciousness works is something that science is trying to tackle. This, of course, does not give religion the right to claim that a supernatural being or divine magic hides in the gaps that science has not covered. And Feynman is indeed an inspiration for many physicists.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Religious Background

Postby HAGART » 28 Aug 2013 23:16

Summerlander wrote:In fact, people can lose their sense of identity through amnesia too.

I have pondered how it would feel to have Alzheimer's. I would literally become someone else. I would still have a consciousness, and awareness, but I wouldn't be the same 'me' that I am now.

Peter wrote:when say in a void experience there is no world just blackness but it is a place with its own energy then I have no body and no concept of me yet I have awareness

I've heard of this, but never experienced it for myself.
However one time, in the middle of the night I woke up and it was dark, and for a moment I actually didn't know who I was. There was no concept of 'me'. It took a few seconds for me to remember what 'being alive' is, and everything I ever thought I knew about reality seemed foreign to me as it all came flooding back. I didn't like the experience and it spooked me. I thought I was losing my mind. But apparently people who meditate enter a state of 'point-consciousness' and enjoy it.

Perhaps it spooked me, because I was caught off guard and not expecting it.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Summerlander » 29 Aug 2013 00:07

Remember "Multiplicity" with Michael Keaton? Remember the first clone? Number one? He felt like he was the original guy who had a wife and kids. He felt like he had lived a lifetime even though he was only a few minutes old. And then he was introduced to the original and told that he was only a replica. He looked at the scientist in shock and disbelief. Why? Because he had the same memories of experience as the original. How? Because as a clone he had the same neurophysiology.

We are like the clone in some ways. Remember when you were a little kid? Well, you are not that kid and never were. You, as a union of new cells, are the substitute. You are not the same person as the kid. Every cell has been replaced since. You only feel like you were that kid because long term memory has been retained within the physiological 'stencil'.

So next time your mum mollycoddles you and gives you the "you're my baby" excuse, you can tell her this in its most literal sense: "No, I'm not." The truth is that that kid is dead. His cells are long gone. In fact you don't even need to go that far. A couple of years ago is probably enough time for a person to change completely (don't quote me on it as I'm not a biologist and I'm not sure how long it takes us to metabolise).

Anyway, you get the point. The "I" seems to arise as a consequential illusion from retained memory. As Chandrakirti says in Guide To The Middle Way, the self is like a cart. It's not other than its parts, not non-other, it's not within the parts, the parts are not within it, not the mere collection, and not the shape etc. (you know how it goes).

This is all very David Hume. You cannot describe any object without mentioning its properties. Try that with something as simple as an apple. You can't. It's beautiful and we are no different.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Religious Background

Postby HAGART » 29 Aug 2013 01:06

Summerlander,

I think about stuff like that too, and how we are physically not the same even with each breath we take, the atoms that compose our bodies is altered, yet we feel like the same person. And we are constantly shedding dead skin cells, and creating new ones from the atoms we consumed, so where my body ends and the rest of the universe begins is a very fine line. Perhaps there is no line of distinction between our physical bodies and the rest of the universe because we are constantly taking and giving back to it at the atomic level.

Yet we still feel like we are constant and separate from it.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Summerlander » 29 Aug 2013 01:32

It is indeed a strange affair. It seems paradoxical. Also, as much as we may like to think that the Buddha was right about the no-self picture, we must be prudent about how we convey this counterintuitive reasoning to the world. Because the ego is so intimate, so personal, many people consider anything other than Descartes' "I think therefore I am" to be illogical.

Perhaps while we are in our infancy with this consciousness business, we should be cautious even about its definition. Susan Blackmore wisely pointed out that when we say consciousness is an illusion we are not necessarily saying that it doesn't exist - just that it may not be what it seems. Perhaps we are not as conscious as we think we are. But the phenomenon definitely appears to be a byproduct,

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: Religious Background

Postby Summerlander » 29 Aug 2013 01:37

*sorry, I'm on my mobile*

...as I was saying, consciousness seems to be an incidental epiphenomenon, like a succession of sparks giving the illusion of continuity. I often liken it to a Newton's cradle that will eventually be made to stop once it rusts.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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worldenterer
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Re: Religious Background

Postby worldenterer » 31 Aug 2013 20:37

I have seen a lot of you guys in here talking about being a part of the universe so I thought you all might enjoy this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU&hd=1
It needs to be about 20% cooler.


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