Is Astral Projection Real?

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

What do you think about Astral Projection?

I am neutral, never tried doing it before.
8
35%
It might be real, though I am unsure if there is a difference between it and lucid dreaming.
4
17%
It is real, I have had one/several before.
3
13%
Astral Projection is just another lucid dream in my opinion.
8
35%
 
Total votes: 23

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Thinker
Posts: 36
Joined: 02 Sep 2013 14:25

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Thinker » 20 Sep 2013 15:42

Summerland:

Nor I or LucidLink said we believe in Astral Projection, because no one disproved it. That would be the use of a well known fallacy.
We only said that just because you don't have evidence, does not mean it's impossible/not true.
The burden of prove is important and if the person doesn't prove it, ''is generally dismissed '' like someone said. But, ''generally dismissed'' can't be = impossible. That is a logical (or epistemological, wtv) mistake, in my opinion.
As you know, a lot of things is science were tought impossible or highly improbable, Einstein for example ''destroyed'' the laws of Newton, that were tought to be proved. Probabilities relies on a observational system, it's unfair to use probabilities against a methaphysical/beyond observation argument.

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 20 Sep 2013 16:15

First, Einstein did not destroy Newton's laws. That's misconception. Newton's laws are still applicable on a classical scale. Einstein merely helped to expand our understanding of how the physical world and tidied up a few loose ends.

Secondly, I don't think you understand the burden of proof let alone scientism. Science cares not about what you believe. Science follows the evidence wherever it may lead and with that we expand our knowledge. As I said before, science demonstrates that there is no reason to believe in astral realms or ghosts because no such thing is found and plenty of evidence against. Yes, highly improbable, cannot say impossible, but the same applies for the unicorn. Such things are not feasible and after

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 20 Sep 2013 16:21

*sorry, on the phone*

After searching for such things with the right protocol we can safely say that they are simply not there. We've got devices that can detect frequencies beyond the range of human perception, we even have hadron colliders that uncovered the Higgs field, and yet, the one thing vitalists say give us a life force, such as a soul or spirit, something that supposedly controls the physical body (thus grossly interacting with physical systems) cannot be found.

Thinker, think about it, my friend, if it was there, we would have found it by now.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 20 Sep 2013 16:42

I also think you are getting ahead of yourself with the whole "has not been disproved" argument. I could say to you right now that I can sprout wings from my back and fly like David Copperfield (only for real) and tell you that I can't prove it to you cuz I've got the flu. And if you doubted me I could say to you, "well, you can't disprove it!"

You see how nonsensical that sounds? How can one disprove something that has not been proved or verified in any way whatsoever in the first place? Hence your reasoning shoots itself in the foot.

Saying it might exist is only an assumption. It is a argument limited to words and insufficient grounds. Just like the assumption you made that I specifically mentioned you as a believer in astral projection. Perhaps you don't believe but seem reluctant to dismiss the idea altogether. As I said before, if you take this agnostic stance (which is a weak one in my view) you also have to be equally agnostic about fairies and unicorns - which is equally ludicrous and inviting of ridicule.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

Brutal Honesty
Posts: 2
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 03:00

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Brutal Honesty » 21 Sep 2013 04:47

It's strange as I look up there at the options I don't see a way I can select what I believe. It paints this whole thing as a black and white subject, very unscientific in my opinion. Hi am a first time poster and I just don't feel that ending this discussion in this way is, in any way, a meaningful conclusion to whats being discussed, so it's with great excitement that I make my first impressions in this way. :twisted:

Science is not about absolutes. It's an ideology based solely on beliefs, because at any point, science, scientists for that matter, believe that ANY "fact" can be proven false based solely on one repeatable experiment. Even its laws, it's most holy doctrine, can be disproved in a single day, by a well designed, repeatable experiment. So what does this mean really? That in effect science is the flashlight we use to shine knowledge on a dark and mysterious universe, as an analogy, it's a spirituality that believes in the universe, and draws no other conclusions beyond that other then to strive to understand what that thing is, "the universe". I am, based on this understanding, a scientist; my views and beliefs are subject to change at a single instance, with any measurable experience I can have on my own, that is repeatable and constant and that will allow me to draw my own facts from. And even then, with the knowledge that anything I know can only be a fragment of what could be known, that i'll always be humbled by what could be. So for the love of science, don't make the word "dream" so common, and don't make "astral projection" just another Religious ideal. Their has to be a grey area. And if we respect that grey area, dreams become just a little more then a body function, and just less then a full-blown conversation with some mystical creator, and to my newly found friends, I can sleep better feeling that truth. :lol:

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Sep 2013 13:49

Poor choice of words, metaphors, and warped reasoning, Brutal Honesty. It's not even funny and it's coming from someone who cares not for the truth. Gravity is a scientific theory. It is also pretty obvious! Can you believe, disbelieve, or disprove that one? The disproving tactic here is nonsensical, and, in case you're confused, it's not a matter of belief...

This reminds me about something I wanted to say to Thinker. Einstein also predicted the lensing effect of light in space to an accurate degree. But he overlooked it's practicality and significance in astronomy (he was not an astronomer anyway.)

Along came Fritz Zwicky who submitted a paper to the Physical Review where he demonstrated the use of lensing by galaxies. He studied the motion of a group of galaxies and realised that they were moving so fast that they should have flown apart, unless there was more mass in the cluster by a factor more than 100.

He unknowingly had discovered dark matter at the time, and guess how he stumbled upon it: using Newton's laws of motion.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Peter » 21 Sep 2013 20:33

This is starting to get personal and away from the subject of the thread. Please keep to the theme of the thread or it will be locked.
This is the one and only warning

Peter
Moderator
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Summerlander
Posts: 3642
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Sep 2013 21:41

It seems that some individuals choose to attack scientific methodology when it only tells us that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of astral planes. Moreover, what science has established is that lucid dreaming is a hybrid state of the brain, and nothing further than this, which can clearly be mistaken for astral projection or real out-of-body experiences.

I have toned it down and tolerated other people voicing their opinions and beliefs in forums like the paranormal and off-topic ones. But this is a science forum, so I will defend what it stands for. It is not about beliefs, it is about considering how far we've got scientifically and what is viable.

If this forum starts getting its topics locked because certain individuals corrupt it with their fantasies, dogmas, pseudoscience, and criticism of science itself, then I am leaving and not coming back. I'm tired of this nonsense. It's very childish.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

User avatar
Peter
Posts: 1951
Joined: 26 May 2011 08:02
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Peter » 21 Sep 2013 23:24

Summerlander, you know as well if not better that anyone that it only takes one scrap of new understanding buy an intuitive leap to change human understanding and open new fronts. All this is something that we did not or could not understand prior and afterwards become obviously simple. I have no idea on what might trigger change but do know that anything is possible.
On these forums people will debate and put up differing positions on issues and I want tolerance for these views and will lock or delete any threads that go against this and start attacking any member because another's view offend.
If I cant moderate in this way I will very happily leave this forum.
To all, keep to the subject and don't seek to run down anyone for a differing view no matter how much you think they are right or wrong.
All our opinions are based only on what we know now and in an instant that could change
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Brutal Honesty
Posts: 2
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 03:00

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Brutal Honesty » 22 Sep 2013 06:37

And with that I apologize Summerlander, what ever modest ideal I was trying to put forth Peter summed up with great efficiency. I am a wording guy in the end.... Again, I apologize. It doesn't help when am a new guy trying to make an impression, and for that, I apologize to everyone, still very neat forum, with some pretty neat people.


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