Is Astral Projection Real?

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

What do you think about Astral Projection?

I am neutral, never tried doing it before.
8
35%
It might be real, though I am unsure if there is a difference between it and lucid dreaming.
4
17%
It is real, I have had one/several before.
3
13%
Astral Projection is just another lucid dream in my opinion.
8
35%
 
Total votes: 23

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HAGART
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby HAGART » 07 Oct 2013 04:30

Jessica Utts wrote:Few human capabilities are perfectly replicable on demand. For example, even the best
hitters in the major baseball leagues cannot hit on demand. Nor can we predict when someone
will hit or when they will score a home run. In fact, we cannot even predict whether or not a
home run will occur in a particular game. That does not mean that home runs don't exist.


I don't care what anyone else says, I like this quote and I relate to it.
I certainly don't lucid dream on command.
But I consider myself a 'Baseball Player'.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 07 Oct 2013 06:53

HAGART wrote:
Jessica Utts wrote:Few human capabilities are perfectly replicable on demand. For example, even the best
hitters in the major baseball leagues cannot hit on demand. Nor can we predict when someone
will hit or when they will score a home run. In fact, we cannot even predict whether or not a
home run will occur in a particular game. That does not mean that home runs don't exist.


I don't care what anyone else says, I like this quote and I relate to it.
I certainly don't lucid dream on command.
But I consider myself a 'Baseball Player'.


I like the analogy too, even though the basic Newtonian Physics that make the ball fly out of park are well understood and could be measured directly as has been pointed out.

I think a better comparison is the so-called Placebo Effect, the function of which is not understood although some unproven theories exist. We do know it exists, but it has been shown to exist only with statistical evidence, which by itself does not make it scientifically proven.

Statistics, like the ones used in Utts' studies are more useful in science to tell us that something is there, but in order to prove something scientifically you need more, you need to understand the function.

Psychic function, if it does exist, is not understood so statistical study is really the only way to at least see if something is there in the first place. I definitively support doing more research.

No one has faulted the methods Jessica Utts used in her research, only the conclusions she drew from research which I also have a problem with. The statistical differences in her studies were too small compared to chance. The statistical standard in science is quite high, a P value of .05. That means for example that out of 100 remote viewing experiments only 5 can be false. So then we could say that there is only a 5% chance of the observed effect being chance. This is explained well in an article I read about statistics use in science called "Odds are, it's wrong"

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/odds-are-its-wrong

"Correctly phrased, experimental data yielding a P value of .05 means that there is only a 5 percent chance of obtaining the observed (or more extreme) result if no real effect exists (that is, if the no-difference hypothesis is correct). But many explanations mangle the subtleties in that definition. A recent popular book on issues involving science, for example, states a commonly held misperception about the meaning of statistical significance at the .05 level: “This means that it is 95 percent certain that the observed difference between groups, or sets of samples, is real and could not have arisen by chance.”

That interpretation commits an egregious logical error (technical term: “transposed conditional”): confusing the odds of getting a result (if a hypothesis is true) with the odds favoring the hypothesis if you observe that result. A well-fed dog may seldom bark, but observing the rare bark does not imply that the dog is hungry. A dog may bark 5 percent of the time even if it is well-fed all of the time."

I haven't made up my mind on the subject and I plan on keeping an open mind. Let's do more research, why not?
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

LucidLink
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby LucidLink » 07 Oct 2013 13:58

So now that most of have established our opinions and why, I have a new question for all the non-believers!

Lets just say for the sake of debate, astral projection isn't real. Now if it's not real what the heck is it??
Many of you are quick to say it's just a lucid dream, which I actually agree with. But astral projection is another form of lucid dream, and it's such a different form that it derserves a different name.

Lucid dreaming is diving into your subcontious impressions. Astral projection is being in that same plane you go to when you lucid dream, except there's no subcontious impressions!

So a lucid dream is astral projection, and astral projection is a lucid dream. It's all going to the same place, projecting an energy copy of yourself into the dream dimension.
But even though their the same place, it derserves a different name because it's a different expereince then lucid dreaming, but the main difference being, that their are no subcontious impressions while astral projecting.

So I guess I'm actually saying we are both right!
Yes astral projection is just a form of lucid dreaming, and yes it's real! :)

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 07 Oct 2013 17:26

@ lucidinthesky:

Sorry to correct you here, buddy, but, the placebo effect is not proof of mind-over-matter or psi (even though many vitalists like to think so). The belief that a sugar pill is real medicine can reduce stress and have positive effects in favour of the patient. In the same vein, when a person is told to calm down, his or her state of mind can improve greatly.

Simply telling someone that they are about to take medicine that will relieve pain can make them smile. Smiling, even when you don't want to, can eventually dupe the brain into releasing its 'happy' chemicals such as dopamine and serotonin. The immune system can be reinforced in turn!

The placebo effect isn't anything special. It merely points to the importance of perception and the vital role the brain plays in maintaining physical health. Provided the conditions are befitting the patient, his or her health will flourish. Sometimes with a little help.

Any other outlandish claims about the placebo effect are bogus.

@ LucidLink:

Lucid dreaming is diving into your subcontious impressions. Astral projection is being in that same plane you go to when you lucid dream, except there's no subcontious impressions!


What makes you think this is the case? How do you know which mental content arises from the subconscious mind and which doesn't? Or, how can you tell that one experience is governed by the subconscious mind and which isn't? :?
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 08 Oct 2013 15:14

Summerlander wrote:@ lucidinthesky:

Sorry to correct you here, buddy, but,...


Why don't you cut out the patronizing BS like this? It might make it easier to take you seriously. :D

Summerlander wrote: ...the placebo effect is not proof of mind-over-matter or psi (even though many vitalists like to think so).



If my body is matter, and by believing it will improve my brain produces endorphins which in turn cause a physiological change in my body, then yes that's mind over matter.

And the theory that endorphins alone are responsible for the placebo effect has not been proven. It's much more complicated than that.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 08 Oct 2013 18:58

Actually, you are mistaken. Believing it will improve is just as part of a brain state as is the improving itself. It's not mind over matter when you do not choose to believe (or disbelief for that matter) that you will get better.

Likewise, you don't choose whether you will be in a good or bad mood, feeling optimistic or pessimistic, high or low spirits etc. These are predetermined states that you are not responsible for. You can mind them, as in be aware of them, but that's about it. Any subsequent behaviour is dictated by how you feel.

Likewise, if you are starving and the urge for Chinese is strong enough, you will behave accordingly.

Again, you have made a baseless assumption about mind-over-matter. Can you see it?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

noelnivel
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby noelnivel » 16 Oct 2013 12:59

I've not had any of these conversations before, these forums are new to me. perhaps my comments have already been expressed:

first, i think some definition of astral travel or projection is necessary. i think if it is true astral travel, it can be verified in this wake-state reality. to astrally project oneself somewhere means, to me, that you are outside of your body in this wake-state reality, thus you can come to my house and see what I'm doing. report back to me when you get back home what you saw. i can verify that easily. failing that, i guess we have to put the notion down to wishful thinking.

there have been many psychics who claim such abilities but I've yet to meet any. they say they have access to anything in the cosmos. i just ask them to tell me how many pennies i have in my pocket and they say they can't access that information. they seem to be only able to access information that is unverifiable...

also, there have been and are still many debunkers out there offering large sums of cash to anyone who can show them something paranormal.

now i did meet a fellow who could read minds like a book and almost as fast as i could think....he was slowed down a bit by having to form words with his mouth. i was very impressed and wanted to learn more about this.....he has avoided me....claiming it's not possible and yet he continues to display his abilities.

i once asked him, while we were walking over a bridge, perhaps an unguarded moment, how one could know which thoughts were from the other person and which were his own. he pointed down to the river below us and said."you see that river?...the reflections on top are like other people's thoughts and the river stream is one's own."

regarding summerland's comment previous...that we cannot alter our moods or feelings...it is possible to alter one's moods and feelings. as a therapist, i not only work with my own moods and feelings, i train others in the skill as well. a quick experiment might show you: remember a moment in your past which you enjoyed and recreate it with as much of the detail as you can...through this process your psyche, which doesn't know the difference between reality and imagination, will believe whatever is on the internal tv screen and respond to the imagery. likewise, thinking about something awful will have a similar effect.

there was an woman in the retirement home i was working in who would buy people's warts and they would disappear. I heard that she was quite successful with it. about the same time i read in an american journal for doctors that one had a lot of success removing warts with wart tape (just some latin words typed on a piece of tape put over the wart). i figured this woman and this doctor were curing psychosomatic problems and so i decided to will my own two warts away. after a couple of days of this they began to fade away....i thought, "this can't be happening" a moment of doubt and they began to come back....so i went back on the offence and continued to will them out...they are gone, have never returned. so there is something about placebos and brain plasticity that is real.

now if we can't predict when it will work and won't, like the baseball home-run analogy given above, at least we know they happen. however, I'm not aware of anyone having an actual astro projection. if you are asleep then the environment is created from the subconscious....or is of some consciousness that is creating the environment....like when we create in LD. so, i don't think that is anything different than LD. an amazing experience but nothing astro about it. unless someone can correct me, I'm of the belief that astro travel is out of body experience in this awake state reality....measurable in this reality.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 17 Oct 2013 17:30

noelnivel wrote:now i did meet a fellow who could read minds like a book and almost as fast as i could think....he was slowed down a bit by having to form words with his mouth. i was very impressed and wanted to learn more about this.....he has avoided me....claiming it's not possible and yet he continues to display his abilities.

i once asked him, while we were walking over a bridge, perhaps an unguarded moment, how one could know which thoughts were from the other person and which were his own. he pointed down to the river below us and said."you see that river?...the reflections on top are like other people's thoughts and the river stream is one's own."


I've always wondered whether thoughts send out waves like ripples on a pond when something hits the water. Maybe some people have an extra sense to read those, probably extremely rare if it exists, but you have actually seen it.

That would make a believer out of me. I can imagine it's hard to believe such things are impossible when you've actually experienced them yourself. It's one thing to talk about whether or not these things can be done on a theoretical level, but you actually had it happen to you. Doesn't that really change things for you?
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 17 Oct 2013 19:28

regarding summerland's comment previous...that we cannot alter our moods or feelings...it is possible to alter one's moods and feelings. as a therapist, i not only work with my own moods and feelings, i train others in the skill as well. a quick experiment might show you: remember a moment in your past which you enjoyed and recreate it with as much of the detail as you can...through this process your psyche, which doesn't know the difference between reality and imagination, will believe whatever is on the internal tv screen and respond to the imagery. likewise, thinking about something awful will have a similar effect.


You misconstrued what I said and you also fail to recognise free will as an incoherent concept...

You think you can alter your moods and feelings (or have the illusion of doing so with control) but ultimately, you do not have free will. You only act according to what your brain states permit, which you do not control in the first place. You may hark back to a moment in your life where something significant happened and use that to influence how you will feel and behave, but, the fact of the matter is, if you do not possess that memory, you will not be able to recreate anything. In fact, if that had never happened to you, you would not have that as a means to manipulate your conduct (which really means that the event would not be there to bring about a particular brand of cerebral electrochemistry that would make you feel and behave in a certain way that would give you an illusion of control). You also do not have control over the things that you can and cannot remember.

So, mister therapist, there goes your self-help and your free will... :D

I'd also like to reiterate that, I used to be a smoker and attempted to quit several times. After nearly a decade of smoking I finally did it. Some say it was my free will. I beg to differ. It was my will, alright, but will that was constrained by my physiology and chemical make-up. One might ask why I did not quit after 5 years instead of 10. Well, because I was not strong enough. The will to quit was not as strong as the will to smoke. See? No control.

Only brain states that happen to emerge according to what happen to us. You only act according to what you feel like doing which is ultimately dictated by your brain activity (which you do not control). And, you either feel like remembering something from your past in order to self-help, or you don't. If you don't you will not make the effort. It may be that you believe it won't work. Perhaps you might have heard from someone that such therapies don't work and you have already formed your opinion. If you're lucky, you might have a therapy who is good at convincing you that influencing you to persevere - in which case, it doesn't really come from you to begin with, it is externally influenced as is everything else... :roll:

Perhaps noelnivel's therapy could have helped me to quit sooner... but I did not come across him before... something which was also ultimately beyond my control.

Mr. therapist: You can decide what you are going to do but you cannot decide what you will decide. Had you been born in a poverty-stricken land such as Liberia, or born with horrible defects in the aftermath of an atomic catastrophy, you might not have had the chance to become a therapist in the first place.

i once asked him, while we were walking over a bridge, perhaps an unguarded moment, how one could know which thoughts were from the other person and which were his own. he pointed down to the river below us and said."you see that river?...the reflections on top are like other people's thoughts and the river stream is one's own."


Seriously? Terrible analogy by the so-called psychic. Need I say why it is terrible?

first, i think some definition of astral travel or projection is necessary. i think if it is true astral travel, it can be verified in this wake-state reality. to astrally project oneself somewhere means, to me, that you are outside of your body in this wake-state reality, thus you can come to my house and see what I'm doing. report back to me when you get back home what you saw. i can verify that easily. failing that, i guess we have to put the notion down to wishful thinking.


That is not what the term "astral travel" implies. It is not a projection into the physical world. It is a projection into the astral plane.

there have been many psychics who claim such abilities but I've yet to meet any. they say they have access to anything in the cosmos. i just ask them to tell me how many pennies i have in my pocket and they say they can't access that information. they seem to be only able to access information that is unverifiable...


Now we're talking... :mrgreen:

there was an woman in the retirement home i was working in who would buy people's warts and they would disappear. I heard that she was quite successful with it. about the same time i read in an american journal for doctors that one had a lot of success removing warts with wart tape (just some latin words typed on a piece of tape put over the wart). i figured this woman and this doctor were curing psychosomatic problems and so i decided to will my own two warts away. after a couple of days of this they began to fade away....i thought, "this can't be happening" a moment of doubt and they began to come back....so i went back on the offence and continued to will them out...they are gone, have never returned. so there is something about placebos and brain plasticity that is real.


How do you know that the warts going away and coming back was not influenced by your nutrition at the time rather than... good lord... mind over matter? :lol:

As for the placebo effect, you misunderstand it. Look at my previous posts about it and you will see what it is all about. Of course it's real, but it is not mind over matter. (You're supposed to be the expert and not a promoter of pseudoscience here.) :)

now if we can't predict when it will work and won't, like the baseball home-run analogy given above, at least we know they happen. however, I'm not aware of anyone having an actual astro projection. if you are asleep then the environment is created from the subconscious....or is of some consciousness that is creating the environment....like when we create in LD. so, i don't think that is anything different than LD. an amazing experience but nothing astro about it. unless someone can correct me, I'm of the belief that astro travel is out of body experience in this awake state reality....measurable in this reality.


Firstly, the home-run is a terrible analogy and can be readily dismissed. Secondly, whether someone is asleep or awake has nothing to do with the reliability of what one is perceiving. One could be awake and be hallucinating. Secondly, consciousness doesn't create anything (although it may have the illusion of control). Look at Libet's experiments among others and you will see what I mean. It is said that the unconscious mind governs the lucid dream experience.

Now, sure, I agree with you that there is nothing astral about the experience. And I will correct you: it is "astral" and you are misinformed about what it means.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 17 Oct 2013 20:30

noelnivel wrote:I've not had any of these conversations before, these forums are new to me. perhaps my comments have already been expressed:

first, i think some definition of astral travel or projection is necessary. i think if it is true astral travel, it can be verified in this wake-state reality. to astrally project oneself somewhere means, to me, that you are outside of your body in this wake-state reality, thus you can come to my house and see what I'm doing. report back to me when you get back home what you saw. i can verify that easily. failing that, i guess we have to put the notion down to wishful thinking.

there have been many psychics who claim such abilities but I've yet to meet any. they say they have access to anything in the cosmos. i just ask them to tell me how many pennies i have in my pocket and they say they can't access that information. they seem to be only able to access information that is unverifiable...

also, there have been and are still many debunkers out there offering large sums of cash to anyone who can show them something paranormal.

now i did meet a fellow who could read minds like a book and almost as fast as i could think....he was slowed down a bit by having to form words with his mouth. i was very impressed and wanted to learn more about this.....he has avoided me....claiming it's not possible and yet he continues to display his abilities.

i once asked him, while we were walking over a bridge, perhaps an unguarded moment, how one could know which thoughts were from the other person and which were his own. he pointed down to the river below us and said."you see that river?...the reflections on top are like other people's thoughts and the river stream is one's own."

regarding summerland's comment previous...that we cannot alter our moods or feelings...it is possible to alter one's moods and feelings. as a therapist, i not only work with my own moods and feelings, i train others in the skill as well. a quick experiment might show you: remember a moment in your past which you enjoyed and recreate it with as much of the detail as you can...through this process your psyche, which doesn't know the difference between reality and imagination, will believe whatever is on the internal tv screen and respond to the imagery. likewise, thinking about something awful will have a similar effect.

there was an woman in the retirement home i was working in who would buy people's warts and they would disappear. I heard that she was quite successful with it. about the same time i read in an american journal for doctors that one had a lot of success removing warts with wart tape (just some latin words typed on a piece of tape put over the wart). i figured this woman and this doctor were curing psychosomatic problems and so i decided to will my own two warts away. after a couple of days of this they began to fade away....i thought, "this can't be happening" a moment of doubt and they began to come back....so i went back on the offence and continued to will them out...they are gone, have never returned. so there is something about placebos and brain plasticity that is real.

now if we can't predict when it will work and won't, like the baseball home-run analogy given above, at least we know they happen. however, I'm not aware of anyone having an actual astro projection. if you are asleep then the environment is created from the subconscious....or is of some consciousness that is creating the environment....like when we create in LD. so, i don't think that is anything different than LD. an amazing experience but nothing astro about it. unless someone can correct me, I'm of the belief that astro travel is out of body experience in this awake state reality....measurable in this reality.


Interesting post, enjoyed reading it. Especially the part about having someone read your mind. Still thinking about that. Has to make you wonder. How could that have been coincidence? It would have probably freaked me out.
Last edited by lucidinthe sky on 17 Oct 2013 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus


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