Is Astral Projection Real?

For those who wish to discuss the purely scientific aspects of sleep and dreams, including new research and future technologies.

What do you think about Astral Projection?

I am neutral, never tried doing it before.
8
35%
It might be real, though I am unsure if there is a difference between it and lucid dreaming.
4
17%
It is real, I have had one/several before.
3
13%
Astral Projection is just another lucid dream in my opinion.
8
35%
 
Total votes: 23

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Oct 2013 19:27

Many people will find it hard to accept that there is no free will because it makes judicial punishment, or any form of punishment for that matter, seem immoral. Despite our attachment to the erroneous notion of free will, most of us are well aware of the fact that brain disorders alone can trump our best intentions in mind. Sam Harris said it well in his "Free Will" thesis:

"Without free will, sinners and criminals would be nothing more than poorly calibrated clockwork, and any conception of justice that emphasized punishing them (rather than deterring, rehabilitating, or merely containing them) would appear utterly incongruous. And those of us who work hard and follow the rules would not 'deserve' our success in any deep sense. It is not an accident that most people find these conclusions abhorrent. The stakes are high."

"Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control. We do not have the freedom we think we have."


Not only are we not the conscious source of our thoughts and actions in the present, we also would have behaved exactly the same as we did in the past, contrary to popular belief and no matter how much we may regret certain actions. If we went back in time and adopted the exact same original brain states that corresponded to the past actions we would have behaved no different and would have felt exactly the same as we did.

If, however, we went back in time with the neurophisiology that we possess at present (the one that has the regretful memory of certain past events) we would indeed be able to act differently. But not because of free will. Because we would have brain states with extra experience and thus capable of using that as a point of reference - and provided that we remember those past events too. Recalling, as everyone knows, doesn't happen when we want it to.

Furthermore, science comes in with experiments such as that of Benjamin Libet's. An EEG showed activity in the brain's motor cortex arising 300 milliseconds before a person feels that he has decided to move. Other labs extended the experiment using functional magnetic resonance imaging. In Free will, the experiment is described as follows:

"Subjects were asked to press one of two buttons while watching a 'clock' composed of a random sequence of letters appearing on a screen. They reported which letter was visible at the moment they decided to press one button or the other. The experimenters found two brain regions that contained information about which button subjects would press a full 7 to 10 seconds before the decision was consciously made. More recently, direct recordings from the cortex showed that the activity of merely 256 neurons was sufficient to predict with 80% accuracy a person's decision to move 700 milliseconds before he became aware of it."

I would even argue that even if cerebral activity happened at the same time as the conscious decision, it would still not give credit to the free will notion for obvious reasons (from cosmological determinism to environmental influences on sentient beings). One might, however, decide that free will, even if illusory, is too strong and too important to discard - as in the compatibilistic view (as opposed to hard determinism). However, I do feel that ignoring facts is not the answer.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby HAGART » 21 Oct 2013 19:59

Its interesting that you brought up the judicial system because I have thought of this too.
Some people break laws, not because they are immoral, but because of their upbringing and social surroundings. If you were abused as a child and taught that violence solves problems and then live in a poor neighborhood infested with drugs, it is natural to be a violent person who sells drugs to make a living. It's human nature and all the atoms that compose bodies and brains will behave and react in the same predictable manner. I would have too and don't feel holier than thow. America's prisons are filled to the brim with these type of people. They need to realize the source of the problem instead of hiding it away in an institution. (This thread now has a life of its own and we should have started a new one).

Then there are other types of criminals that are just sick in the head. You can't fix that with punishment. And neither with the first type I describe. Some call prison 'a college for criminals'. They learn a lot in there. Locking people up doesn't solve any problems and may even exasperate the problem.

Where were we again? Oh yea prisons. No, it was free will. Or was it astral projection? I don't know anymore! We should stop, because I know how annoying it is to see a new, green check mark on an old post I don't care about anymore.

WE SHOULD ALL AGREE TO LOCK THIS THREAD. (Start a new one anytime about astral projection or free will, but this one's cooked).
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Location: CANADA

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby HAGART » 21 Oct 2013 20:14

I like this talk though, so I will make a new topic in the off-topic section about it.
Free will has a lot to do with lucid dreaming. We are in a dream and make conscious deliberate decisions.
Just copy and paste what you wrote to save time.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 21 Oct 2013 20:38

Okay! :D

Everyone, you can voice your opinion here:
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13858
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
Posts: 3656
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 19:52

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Summerlander » 22 Oct 2013 00:53

And to finish here, and more to the point of this thread, let me leave you all with a quote by Michael Raduga from The Phase guidebook:

"There are many reasons to classify lucid dreaming (i.e. dream consciousness) together with out-of-body travel. This is not only because existing research and a massive number of peoples' experiences easily prove it. There are a number of questions that adherents of dividing phase phenomena into various states cannot answer.

First, why do lucid dreamers and out-of-body travellers use the very same techniques to achieve their states, but merely call the result by different names?

Second, why are the fundamental properties of the out-of-body plane and lucid-dreaming world exactly the same?

Third, if the world of dreaming can take on any external form with any properties, then how does one differentiate real exit of the soul from the body into the physical world - or parallel astral one - from a simulated dreamscape? Many can offer theoretical explanations, but not one that can be applied or proven in practice."

For those of you who attempt the argument from the inability to disprove (again ignoring the burden of proof) let me quote from Hermione in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows about the Resurrection Stone:

"How can I possibly prove it doesn't exist? Do you expect me to get hold of - of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist."

It almost sounds Kantian or Russellian! LoL! Thus I believe we have concluded how valid the astral projection affair is (sarcasm) and how realistic/pragmatic the term lucid dreaming.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

LucidLink
Posts: 405
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Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby LucidLink » 26 Oct 2013 19:14

I say again, I believe astral projection is very real my friends ;)

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Peter
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Peter » 26 Oct 2013 21:53

I have always said it is real as we experience it but still say it is not what you believe it to be. If it is you are welcome to find my house and smash a window to show me you can interact with the physical other that just you own body
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

LucidLink
Posts: 405
Joined: 08 Apr 2013 16:48

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby LucidLink » 26 Oct 2013 22:17

Peter wrote:I have always said it is real as we experience it but still say it is not what you believe it to be. If it is you are welcome to find my house and smash a window to show me you can interact with the physical other that just you own body


I never thought astral projection was capable of something like that. So we can both agree it is real as we experience it:)

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Peter
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby Peter » 26 Oct 2013 22:24

Off course we can :)
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

LucidLink
Posts: 405
Joined: 08 Apr 2013 16:48

Re: Is Astral Projection Real?

Postby LucidLink » 28 Oct 2013 14:18

[quote="Peter"]I have always said it is real as we experience it but still say it is not what you believe it to be. If it is you are welcome to find my house and smash a window to show me you can interact with the physical other that just you own body[/quote]

I would love to elaborate on my personal beliefs with astral projection, because I have a different definition then many people, and i never thought astral projection was capable of something like that, which shows others do not understand my beliefs. But I know my beliefs will be attacked, so I will keep them to myself.

I'd also like to add, I've never experienced astral projection, only lucid dreams. I still believe:)
The astral planes, the 4th dimension, is where we go when we die. Dreams are the "after-life".

Feel free to attack those beliefs and try to brutally assassinate them summerlander :)

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