Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

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LucidLink
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby LucidLink » 23 Oct 2013 14:33

Highlander wrote:Well, i guess my post is getting to a place where it shouldn't be. It's getting too off-topic. I did start the subject about astral planes but it was just because i'm still questioning those themes.

I've been reading all of your posts without interfering and, like Hagart said here, i'm just taking away from this what i want, or leave what i want and decide for myself. I thank all of the responses. We have here a scientific sides, spiritual sides, etc. Thanks, guys.
I am not much of a religious person. I mean, i was raised catholic, taught about heaven, God and whatnot, but as time went by i started to take a more scientific approach and making my own mind. Most of it i don't believe. I think some of the spiritual stories can be proven by scientific facts. And some of them has been proven. But i also question other things. I believe that some spiritual stories are true. I believe all of the sides have their theories and some of them are wrong too. Science is not 100% right. Science has been proving facts that later were wrong, they have contradicted themselves and all that. If, for example, you watch the "Through the wormhole" series, you'll see why 1 theory has different and proven approaches just in science alone. Science sometimes says things like: "It is proven that beer causes damage to your health". Years later: "Now we prove that after all, beer is good for the bones." Years later: "Well, we prove that beer is good preventing cancer." And then: "Well, after all, beer causes cancer." (I'm just improvising here, joking a little, but you get the point). I read stuff like that all the time.

I think this discussions are healthy. But i think we should respect one another and not acusing someone that believes in another thing.
Summerlander said: "Do you believe in a soul? My argument is, why believe in something you have absolutely no evidence for? Unless you would like it to be true and would rather not hear the truth if it turns out to be unpleasant..."
I believe something like this was said many many years (or even centuries) ago about lucid dreaming. "Lucid dreaming? Being conscious while unconscious? Being lucid in a dream? There's is no evidence for it. This doesn't exist." And then, someone prove it scientifically. How can anyone say that many years from now, someone will not prove scientifically that there is a soul?
This is just my opinion. I'm just an open-minded person. I believe in science and i believe in spirituality. If people read something was proven scientifically and believe it, why can't people read something was proven spiritualy and not believe it? I mean, all of the OBE stories, afterlife, reincarnation, all from centuries ago until now, the stories being similar and all... are ALL "bull"?
I believe open-mindness is the key to this forum, or at least, i guess it should be.


I couldn't agree more Highlander, I enjoyed reading that :)

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Highlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Highlander » 23 Oct 2013 15:13

Summerlander: i didn't say that i don't believe in God and believe in spirits. I said that there are aspects of religion that i don't believe and some i do. Didn't say which one. Nor i was certain of any other stuff i said. Don't assume this kind of stuff, please. I'm just questioning stuff.
As for what you said about "people are ill-informed and yet speak from certainty", i agree. But i didn't see that here.

You also said that i have not given any good reasons, just this guy wrote this book, someone told me, etc. Isn't that the same as you in science. How come you believe so much in what you said. Have you read it in books, talked to scientists? Or have you experienced it all? What's the difference of believing in a fact because you read it, scientists told you and it is documented and you and believing in OBE because you read it, people told you (experienced it) and it is documented? Just because science didn't find an answer?
Are we to believe only of what we see? If so, i don't believe that dinosaurs existed. I never saw one. Pictures, documentaries and fossils could be a hoax.
Are we to believe something that scientists proved because the calculations were right? It could be possible that the calculations might be wrong.

You keep comparing spiritual themes with fairies and unicorns. Saying that if one believe in spirits, one has to believe in unicorns. That's hilarious. You are so wrong about people.
You believe strongly in science. That's ok. I believe in science too, but i also believe that science cannot prove all that there is in the universe. If it cannot prove it, it's not an excuse that doesn't exist. And don't talk about unicorns. I could say that there could exist unicorns in another planet and science will prove it, and this discussion will get weirder than there is now.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby lucidinthe sky » 23 Oct 2013 15:56

Summerlander wrote:What I dislike is when people are ill-informed and yet speak from certainty.


:lol:
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Summerlander » 23 Oct 2013 21:19

Sorry, Highlander, I assumed you didn't believe in God because you mentioned God and "most of it I don't believe" in that sentence. My bad.

As for you reading a book and believing it and me with science: I'm sorry but it just isn't the same. The book you read is very unscientific and provides no substance to back up its claims. Common and basic scientific knowledge about medical instruments that measure brain activity and terminology employed to describe brain states tell us that Dr. Alexander there attempted to deceive the layman and get away with it. For starters, he's a brain surgeon, cuts parts. He is not a neuroscientist. In fact, the neuroscientist can easily refute his claims with factual data.

All one has to do is research in order to verify whether a book and its author are legit or not. Alexander is not. (Not to mention his knavish reputation prior to the book's release.)

Another thing. Whenever a team of scientists tests something and arrive at conclusions, other teams recreate their experiments for verification. Scientists also compete amongst themselves. There is no room for conspiracies or denial for the sake of denial. Science is about following evidence wherever it may lead. If you cheat, lie, or tamper with measurements you will get found out. Pseudoscience does not prevail and one of the reasons besides being false is that it is useless.

When there is consensus and when conclusions can be demonstrated via experimentation, there is no need to doubt the result.

As for dinossaurs and fossils... :mrgreen:

You may not have seen them (my nine year old son has) but if you officially doubt their existence (or that they ever existed in living form) and evince this to the world, you run the risk of being publicly humiliated and plenty of individuals in the field of archaeology and palaeontology would personally march you to a science museum while the cameras roll just so you came face to face with tangible evidence. What would you say then? That the bones are fake, not that old, or that they do not belong to a dinosaur? Experts could easily point out that the pieces fit and that they are over 70 million years old using carbon dating. They would also happily tell you about Willard Libby and why he was awarded for his work in chemistry.

Now, imagine that you publicly state that you don't believe in fairies. Nobody go to the lengths that I previously described because everybody knows that evidence for fairies cannot be produced. Same with ghosts and unicorns. Why? Because, as far as we can tell, they don't exist. Such things are nowhere to be found. Not today, not ever (let alone fossils of them). And we are not talking about fairy-shaped or unicorn-shaped aliens as you alluded to in your post. LOL! :D

But I do have something to say about alien-shaped unicorns... :)

You may say that such things could exist. Could! Science won't take this statement away from you. But note that it is not expressing the belief that such things certainly exist. In science, the "could" statement clearly lies in the hypothetical category. It is not an established fact like evolution or gravity. Therefore, no good reason to believe that there even are unicorn-shaped aliens. Most likely, alien life is unlike anything can imagine at this point.

If you want to claim that they do exist, then the burden of proof is on you. Just as in a court of law, if you want to convince the jury that someone is guilty, you need evidence. The onus to convince the world is on you. If you don't want to convince the world, then don't pass your beliefs off as truisms or get annoyed or offended when people ask you why you hold such beliefs and you cannot provide a good reason other than: science doesn't have all the answers. If you happen to convince the world using the scientific method (the best we have with which to study reality) then you might just make a name for yourself and earn a Nobel Prize. Peter Higgs recently did with the boson that gives all other particles their mass.

But what you don't get to say is, "Science has not disproved it, therefore I believe because it could exist." - It doesn't take a genius to figure out why this position is fallacious and shoots itself in the foot. :roll:

Teaching people to reach a hybrid brain state that gives them lucid dreams and out-of-body sensations is not evidence of spiritual planes of existence, ghosts, or the hereafter. The human brain tells porkies (these are well documented). The human brain dreams, hallucinates, and concocts delusions (and its activity will indicate this, among other bodily symptoms and expressions such as miosis, mydriasis, palpitations, sweat, delirium etc.)

Therefore, the tangible evidence that is found in museums, the recorded relevant data, the photographic record, fossilology documentaries, and all the discoveries in this branch that help to establish or provide a good picture of our prehistoric past cannot be a hoax. There have been hoaxes but they were swiftly and duly discredited by professionals (often, Libby's method was enough to see through them). If those documentaries that highlight for us where we are in such studies were fabricated, they would be exposed (and plenty of people would be willing to exposed them and make the news). The hoaxers would not be able to get away with it simply because too many experts are on the ball.

It baffles me as you why you more readily believe in that which has not been demonstrated than that which has been scientifically established to exist and there is tangible proof besides consensus...

Another thing. Saying science cannot prove all that there is in the universe is a bold claim. How do you know this? Have you the slightest idea about the future and how science and technology might progress? There was a time when people laughed at the idea of man going to the moon and bringing back with him lunar rocks to be studied. There was a time, not to long ago, where the mention of Hubble's law and the existence of dark matter would be deemed a far-fetched concept. Often, what science uncovers had not even been previously imagined. Finally, I want to leave you with a quote by Charles Darwin:

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

The Beach Boy
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby The Beach Boy » 23 Oct 2013 21:29

Highlander wrote:I think this discussions are healthy. But i think we should respect one another and not acusing someone that believes in another thing.
Summerlander said: "Do you believe in a soul? My argument is, why believe in something you have absolutely no evidence for? Unless you would like it to be true and would rather not hear the truth if it turns out to be unpleasant..."
I believe something like this was said many many years (or even centuries) ago about lucid dreaming. "Lucid dreaming? Being conscious while unconscious? Being lucid in a dream? There's is no evidence for it. This doesn't exist." And then, someone prove it scientifically. How can anyone say that many years from now, someone will not prove scientifically that there is a soul?


Really great point here man. I must say, I am impressed with both of you guys in being able to intelligently defend your own opinions so well that both of you seem to be just as right as the other. When it comes down to it though, only we can really decide what we choose to believe. I personally believe in a soul. However, I also am very open minded and would never choose to believe something simply because I want to pretend. If something is proven, than that is what I will listen to. However, we can prove there is or isn't a sell about as well as we can prove why anything exists period.

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Summerlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Summerlander » 23 Oct 2013 21:58

Point taken, Beach. On the question of why anything exists at all I would rephrase it: How is there something rather than nothing? "How" rather than "why"(the last word implies anthropic reasoning, i.e.too human).

Christopher Hitchens once said something along these lines: those who think something is anything special, just you wait, a great deal of nothingness is headed our way. Physist Lawrence Krauss also says something along those lines in his "A Universe From Nothing" besides showing us how the universe could have arisen from a quantum mechanical unstable nothingness and how Hubble's law fits into this. I really recommend his book and seminars as they are highly scientific and provide us with the latest in cosmology.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

The Beach Boy
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby The Beach Boy » 24 Oct 2013 01:44

There is so much we need to learn... So much!

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Summerlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Summerlander » 24 Oct 2013 08:23

You bet! This is why it's premature to believe in anything in order to fill in the unknown void. Like Thor, Neptune, Apollo... Now we know such imaginary gods are not behind thunder and lightning, the rain, or how the seas and skies behave. Science has ruled out those preconceived notions and provided explanations for them that we couldn't imagine. Would could imagine ionisation in the dark ages? Rather than believe in anything that has not been concretely demonstrated we should never give up on searching for real answers. Hence, science.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Highlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Highlander » 24 Oct 2013 10:33

Let's make it clear.
I will not have an arguement about science. You are very well informed and i am not. I can never win an arguement, because i don't have the power of words and i lost arguements before even when i was right. I am not saying you are wrong. By the contrary. I like this stuff. I like watching documentaries and read books and posts like yours. I like to have the subjects that are a mistery to me, explained scientifically. And i thank you for enlighten me. What i didn't like (and i guess, some of the people will agree) is what you said about people being delusional or ignorant if they think otherwise. That's what this huge discussion is all about.
Man, i even agree with you about the fact that it's annoying when someone is imposing a fact that they know it's true "just because", and cannot prove it. But, once again, that didn't happen here. You keep thinking that i know this stuff for a fact. When i say "believe" i'm not saying "know for a fact". It's kinda like "i guess that this exist" or "i hope it exists". I don't know for sure if it exists and i cannot prove it. Can't i believe in something that is not proven? I still am a guy who is more on the side of science. Heck, it's one of the reasons i'm not such a religious guy. I saw the scientific facts on that. But i believe that there's someting spiritual in our lifes also.
That's the difference between you and me. If a person asks me what love is, i'll say something like: "It's an attraction we feel with someone, like a connection... it's hard to explain. It's something we feel." As you would say: "It's a reaction of pheromones and bla bla bla... heart pumping... bla bla bla... chemical reaction..." (just improvising). You would be right, but how can you disagree the other answer? Life is not only science. An only science world is boring. An only spiritual world is boring. The 2 coexist. Ever did, ever will. How can i believe in something that is not proven? I don't know. I am an open-minded person. Call me spiritual, call me ignorant, delusional... hell, i don't care. I don't know why i believe. I guess no one can explain. And if i did explain it, i guess you'll never understand it.

Summerlander wrote:Science has looked at the possibility of lucid dreaming and found it. Science has also looked at the possibility of souls as a life force and did not find it. What it found was quite the opposite: nothing.

You proved me right on this one. How come they made it? Lucid dreaming was just "spiritual mambo-jambo". Then, one day, scientists might have said something like: "No, a lot of people are talking about this. There must be something." They disregard all the close mindedness and went for it.
I don't think science proved that there is no afterlife or souls. They simply didn't find an answer. Maybe there's something they can't prove yet. I mean, so many people for ages talked about the afterlife. For me, that's a reason to question. You talked about Thor and Apollo. Well, at that time, people believed because everyone was talking about it. And scientists questioned. And prove it wrong. This is not happening with afterlife, for example. Everyone talks about it with no proof otherwise.
As for fairies and unicorns. No, there's not a bilion people talking that it exists, so don't go there. But, you know what? If all kinds of people talked about seeing them for ages and science didn't find an answer, i would start to question if it exists.

Summerlander wrote:But what you don't get to say is, "Science has not disproved it, therefore I believe because it could exist." - It doesn't take a genius to figure out why this position is fallacious and shoots itself in the foot.

Again, don't generalize it. There's some things science has not disproved it and i don't believe and some i believe. Don't ask me why.

Summerlander wrote:Saying science cannot prove all that there is in the universe is a bold claim. How do you know this? Have you the slightest idea about the future and how science and technology might progress?

And i say this to you. Saying science proves all that there is in the universe is a bold claim.

You can say what you want. I am what i am. I love science, i respect it, but i think that there's something spiritual out there. I believe in some things i didn't experience. I don't know why. I'm good that way. For that, i want to leave you with a quote also, by Thomas Gray:
"Ignorance is bliss."

EDIT: corrected some typos.
Last edited by Highlander on 24 Oct 2013 20:13, edited 4 times in total.

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Summerlander
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Re: Dreaming of the exact place i'm in

Postby Summerlander » 24 Oct 2013 18:22

I would never call you delusional or ignorant. I think people can be misguided at times and I'm no exception. Nobody knows everything and you have not lost any argument. You have a particular worldview which may or may not change overtime. You may not agree with me but you have shown everyone here that you understood where I'm coming from. You have selected certain statements I have made to argue your side. That's a sign of intelligence. You may think I don't have that profound feeling that makes people think that we can't just be biological machines. I do. I've just become more pragmatic with age that's all. Anyway, nice thread, Highlander! :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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