Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

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deschainXIX
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby deschainXIX » 24 Oct 2013 21:43

Thinker wrote:but is determined how It will occur?

Yes, because various things lead to your decision to raise it a certain way. Miniscule things that we don't ever notice consciously.
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Summerlander » 25 Oct 2013 00:21

I agree. Our physiology plays a part and will react according to its structure and the electrochemical state of the brain at a given time, location, and presentation of events. That is how the organism will react. We may observe a person raising his arm really high when asked to do so and we may think, "it is was me I wouldn't have raised my arm that high." And this may be so because you are different: different genome, you may be female, you may be athletic (unlike the aforementioned arm-raiser), you may be a shy orphan etc.

All the factors come into play which dictate that you do not possess the free will regality. Perhaps you don't even have arms to raise because of some tragic accident...

Now, trade places with the high arm-raiser atom for atom, molecule for molecule, organic structure, elecrochemical activity and so on and place yourself at the same location and time when he raised his arm. You would do exactly the same as him.

In fact, you would be him. It gets weirder...

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby HAGART » 25 Oct 2013 20:51

The hardest part of grasping this notion is the sheer number of variables involved.
But variables are calculable. Hence, all we do is predictable.

(Short and sweet. Think about it!)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Thinker
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Thinker » 25 Oct 2013 22:44

HAGART wrote:The hardest part of grasping this notion is the sheer number of variables involved.
But variables are calculable. Hence, all we do is predictable.

(Short and sweet. Think about it!)


I'm not sure if it is predictable, but I agree that science has nothhing against the fact that in the particular momment with x,y,z,b,d (etc) variables there is only one possible action for the preson involved (determinism). But saying that in the past you could predict is a different thing. I asked in my previous post and questioned Summerlander but he did not see, I suppose. Random events occur? Inside the human body I don't know if there are any random events. In quantum mechanics scientists say that randomness occurs, that has influnced on the macroscopic level?. And remember, I'm not using this argument to attack determinism. I'm questoning the destiny point of view. You argue that everything is decided for the future. ''What happened happened and could not have happened any other way ''

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Thinker
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Thinker » 25 Oct 2013 22:51

Summerlander wrote:I agree. Our physiology plays a part and will react according to its structure and the electrochemical state of the brain at a given time, location, and presentation of events. That is how the organism will react. We may observe a person raising his arm really high when asked to do so and we may think, "it is was me I wouldn't have raised my arm that high." And this may be so because you are different: different genome, you may be female, you may be athletic (unlike the aforementioned arm-raiser), you may be a shy orphan etc.

All the factors come into play which dictate that you do not possess the free will regality. Perhaps you don't even have arms to raise because of some tragic accident...

Now, trade places with the high arm-raiser atom for atom, molecule for molecule, organic structure, elecrochemical activity and so on and place yourself at the same location and time when he raised his arm. You would do exactly the same as him.

In fact, you would be him. It gets weirder...

[ Post made via Android ] Image


It's difficult to see all the variables. One might say that the person had the possibility to raise the arm 2 degrees differently. Suppose I, right now, deliberately and conscious raise my arm. I can choose to raise it in different ways, thousand ways. We would scientific background to say that I had no choice but to raise my arm 1000 times in those specific ways and not others.

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Thinker
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Thinker » 25 Oct 2013 22:54

deschainXIX wrote:
Thinker wrote:but is determined how It will occur?

Yes, because various things lead to your decision to raise it a certain way. Miniscule things that we don't ever notice consciously.


What miniscule things? We have to know that mechanism to assume that action was determined. However, If we had free will on that kind of actions, that wouldn't make any great difference in our determined lives.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby deschainXIX » 25 Oct 2013 23:12

"What miniscule things?"
You just proved my point. Notice how I said "miniscule things that we don't ever notice consciously." I can see you're not a very conscious person (that's not a bad thing, most people aren't), but basically there are millions of bits of information ours eyes pick up every millisecond. But, or course, we're not capable of decoding more than three things at a time (the debate can be made that we can't even think of more than ONE thing at a time). Right now your peripheral vision is also seeing your desk or the sides of your monitor or whatever.
What I mean is you can see things without seeing them. Out of the corner of you eye, you might see a fly buzzing about and you might not register that consciously because you're concentrating. Then you suddenly realize you get a sense of annoyance and only then do you direct your attention towards the fly and acknowledge its existence.
Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
and read this "The Invisible Gorilla" by Christopher Cabris and Daniel Simons.
Well said.

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Peter
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Peter » 26 Oct 2013 02:29

Which one of the many parts of us is the free will attached to? I tend to think that the part of "us" that gets around in daily life is only one awareness and might not even be real but a mixed up construct to allow senses to work
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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HAGART
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2013 02:34

Our consciousness is a lightning storm in our brains.
It seems chaotic, but it's not.
You can predict it with a computer. (Hypothetically).

To realize it for ourselves we need to be one step ahead and think faster than thought itself. (Which is an impossible conundrum. A catch-22 if you will).

I have a thought experiment banging around in my head, and I'll try and make sense of it and write it tomorrow.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby HAGART » 26 Oct 2013 02:37

I have realized that "I" is a figment of my imagination and "I" am a construct of my own mind. A dream character if you will. Ego is an illusion. (Does this make any sense?!) It does to me, and I can still joke and have fun too, but this does get deep doesn't it? And I LIKE IT!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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