Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

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Peter
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Peter » 26 Oct 2013 02:44

I have realized that "I" is a figment of my imagination and I an a construct of my own mind


Off course you are and the "mind" needs a servant to collect all the interesting stuff our senses pick up so this I becomes useful but can get out of control at times. Where do you keep your energy, mental energy that is - in the I that is so random and controlled by emotion or a little deeper where you can direct the annoying I and then what allows you to do this as when in the dream and the trained explorer projecting and looking around asks for guidance is answered there must be another awareness because one answers the call

Just gets deeper and deeper
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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deschainXIX
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby deschainXIX » 26 Oct 2013 16:24

Yeah, it really is interesting: What are you? Seeing as all of the cells of our body replace themselves in ... how many years was it? I don't remember ... So unless you believe in a soul, yeah, there is no such thing as ego.
And this is really creepy, because of what HAGART mentioned about a computer predicting our brains' actions. So if we ever made a self-aware, intelligent computer (which we most definitely will, there's no avoiding it ... even if we, as a society, avoid it for obvious reasons, surely some terrorist would try to) it could predict our very thoughts and we would have no way of stopping it, should it have the desire to destroy its human creators. And it's very likely it would, seeing as we're not exactly very good sentient beings.
Well said.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby deschainXIX » 26 Oct 2013 16:31

Because I realized the other day that every human's goal is, ultimately, to get their physical body into a good place. "The pursuit of success and happiness" is just pleasing the body, really. And that just strikes me as such a pointless, finite goal, being an oneironaut and psychologist, especially since we only live a hundred years (if you are particularly young, the chances are rather favorable that we will live to be AT LEAST a hundred do to exponential technological and medical advancement). Our bodies, I mean.
Well said.

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Thinker
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Thinker » 26 Oct 2013 23:51

HAGART wrote:I have realized that "I" is a figment of my imagination and "I" am a construct of my own mind. A dream character if you will. Ego is an illusion. (Does this make any sense?!) It does to me, and I can still joke and have fun too, but this does get deep doesn't it? And I LIKE IT!


Interesting. That will depend how you define ''I'', the sum of all ideias in our brain? All the memories? But we cannot remember all things we have in our brain I suppose, so, the ''I'' is always changing when we forget? Our we should define ''I'' as the core memories that defines personality?. There are a lot of psychologic forces operating inside us and we don't notice, because are uncouscious. Some people are more aware of those influences, other don't.
If you think well, every day you learn something, so, the ''I'' is never constant under the first definiton. There is no ''I''. Is like the old question about time: '' If the past is gone, the future is yet to come and the presente takes no time at all, how can time exist?''
''I'' only exist in a fraction of a second.
Also, we react under the pressure of the enviromment...is the enviroment that will influence our behavior I suppose, so you don't no how you will reacted is certain situations.
That ego, id stuff of Freud was never confirmed, or am I wrong?
But, yes, it's a good speculation to say that a lot of people make na imagem of the ''I'' that is very distorted
''We need to go deeper'' Sir :D
Speculations ^^

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HAGART
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby HAGART » 27 Oct 2013 04:27

What I mean by "I" is my personality and who I think I am.

When I slowly wake up from a non-lucid dream, it becomes very apparent to me that "I" wasn't there and gets formed again in the mornings. If you wake up really slowly. And other times I stay in a prolonged period of hypnopompia/hypnagogia, not really dreaming, but thinking random thoughts in the morning, and I am definitely conscious, but "I", my ego and personality are not operating. That's why those early morning thoughts I get can be very hard to remember. They are abstract, and it was like "I" wasn't really there.

It can feel like I'm losing my mind when this happens, but I always snap out of it eventually and my memories of who "I" am come back to me.

(I actually don't know too much about Frued and all I meant about ego, was 'ego sense of self identity'). What is Id and Superego anyway, I should look those up.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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deschainXIX
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby deschainXIX » 27 Oct 2013 14:20

HAGART wrote:They are abstract, and it was like "I" wasn't really there.

That's probably mostly due to alternating brainwave frequencies. We don't understand ourselves when looking at times in an alternate brainwave frequencies, but we understand it while we're in it and don't understand higher brainwave states. For all intents and purposes, alternating brainwave states yield alternating egos.

Yeah, reality and ego are both nonexistent because they're both defined by two extremely faulty and unreliable mechanisms: perception and memory.
Well said.

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Summerlander
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Re: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2013 17:20

I agree with Deschain's last paragraph. It perception (based on sensory input effecting the organism) and memory that create the illusion of the waking ego, or user illusion.

Free will is definitely nonexistent. And consciousness is a real phenomenon, but an illusion too, meaning it is not what we think it is.

As for quantum mechanics... It does not prevent determinism nor does it support free will in any way. The quantum realm merely holds every possibility, every potential, but it is still constrained by one simple rule: the fastest way from A to B wins. Otherwise it wouldn't be a probabilistic framework.

Random is an obscure word that hinges on anthropic uncertainty. And there is also another limitation that we face when we measure a quantum property. We effect its delicate state. Because of this, we never get to know what it was like or what it would be like if we hadn't tampered with it for the sake of study.

Reality may have quantum roots but classical Newtonian physics still reign on our level and determinism is crystal clear.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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