Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

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Summerlander
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Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby Summerlander » 28 Oct 2013 21:13

Here is someone you probably haven't heard of as much as Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung. And yet, she was associated with both of them and was a member of the Vienna Psychoanalytic Society.

In fact, she was one of the first female psychoanalysts and the first person to introduce the idea of "death instincts." She argued that the sexual drive contains an instinct of destruction and transformation. This is something that anticipated Freud and Jung (and indeed Freud acknowledged this in "Beyond The Pleasure Principle").

Spielrein's "Concerning The Psychological Content of a Case of Schizophrenia" was the first psychoanalytical dissertation written by a woman, and Jung was her advisor. But her most renowned work is "Destruction as The Cause of Coming Into Being." This is where she tackles the question: If sex is pleasurable, why do people repress it? Here's an excerpt from it:

"Why does this most powerful drive, the reproductive instinct, harbour negative feelings in addition to the inherently anticipated positive feelings? These negative feelings, such as anxiety and disgust, must be overcome in order to use the drive appropriately."

While Freud saw sex as a life instinct and concluded that people hold an unconscious desire to die, which is counterbalanced by life instincts, Spielrein contended that sex was a destructive force (despite the pleasure) and hence the need people felt to repress it.

Spielrein was the reason why Jung initially reached out to Freud. She was Jung's mental patient at the time, a case of "hysteria" that the young dream analyst had found particularly challenging. Whilst treating her, Jung would also teach her. Eventually, Spielrein became his colleague and would also share her ideas with Freud.

According to correspondence between the three, there is good reason to believe that Carl Jung had an affair with Sabina Spielrein. This was something that Jung, as a married man, felt extremely guilty about. In the film "A Dangerous Method," Spielrein is seen recounting to Jung how, as a little girl, her abusive father had ordered her to strip naked before spanking her as a form of punishment. Then, in a quirky twist, she confesses to Jung that she had felt excited and recoils in disgust.

This sexual drive is at first repressed, but, as her relationship with Jung progressed, she stopped fighting those urges and our famous dream analyst would find himself spanking her bottom as her father once did. Needless to say, both had fun and one can describe Carl Jung as having been a repressed polygamist rather than a true monogamist. (Spielrein hadn't been his only extramarital conquest.)

As lucid dreamers, we can't help but recall those instances where we feel horny in the dream world, a feeling that can be overpowering, and how we have abandoned any interesting plans we might have had to just relieve our tension by fulfilling our sexual fantasies. But once awake, many people feel that they have degraded themselves, feeling disappointed for having no control, or feeling weak for having fallen in temptation. This may give us an idea of what Spielrein was experiencing. (If you know more about her or would like to discuss this subject in more detail, feel free.)

Eventually they went their separate ways. Spielrein was murdered by the Nazis during WWII and Carl Jung outlived his wife Emma.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 00:14

Sexual desire is rarely discussed here.
We all have it and I know I explore that and try new things in lucid dreams concerning sexual desire and whatever I fantasize. I don't feel strange and think we all do this.

Sometimes I do wake up feeling like I wasted the dream with mere pleasure and nothing intelligent was gained. Or it can even make me wake up right away (a foul if you will). Or I spend the whole dream 'looking for love in all the wrong places' and nobody shows up.

(EDIT: I kept waking up in the night with regrets. I felt I said too much, so I omitted some parts of this. It goes to show just how suppressed we keep our personal sexual desires. I feel better now.)

Last edited by HAGART on 30 Oct 2013 07:16, edited 2 times in total.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 00:55

After breaking the ice with that, let's get deep and talk about psychology.

I have questioned attractiveness. I can't explain it with logic. I happen to like find women attractive and yet the difference physically between a woman and a man is very subtle. We all have two arms, two legs, two eyes, ears, a nose, a mouth ect. But it's those very subtle differences that make all the difference.

I know a painter who paints portraits of people and knows those differences. He says a woman's nose points up just slightly more than a mans, or how the chin is narrower, or knows the proper space of the gap between the nose and upper lip ect. And that's just the face and you can tell from that without a body when it's all put together.

To bring this back to lucid dreaming, there have been times when I have looked around for the perfect woman, but I have never found one. Perfection is an idea we cannot attain. There is no perfect when it comes to physical attraction and my brother told me once, "It's those imperfections that make you fall in love."

This is from a male point of view and we males tend to use visuals. I would like to hear a female perspective from someone not too shy. No need for specifics... we are just talking psychology and lucid dreaming about one aspect in particular that make some people blush. :oops: ;) Perhaps Sabina Spielrein was that point of view and we do need both sides of the story when it comes to the human approach to this. If you just listen to Freud you won't get the whole story.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2013 02:18

I think we need to be honest with ourselves as human beings. Spot on. Of course, talking about sex is always risky and might cause offence or disgust. Perhaps, we could, if we must mention it, talk about it in technical terms and leave out the details.

And yes, lucid dreams are private so no harm done. I didn't know what sort of response this would get but I'm glad your open-minded about it, Hagart. I'll have to review your replies more carefully tomorrow. I think Spielrein taught us all a lesson in her own way. So did Freud and Jung.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 04:45

I did stay technical without any details, (maybe I should not have elaborated on what nocturnal emission means... :oops: ) and part of me regrets ever posting anything at all.
It's easy not to say anything at all, but I would be proud of someone else who admits it and speaks up.

I watched an interview with (a famous, experienced lucid dreamer) a few months ago and he mentioned being sidetracked by 'girls in bikinis'. We all do that. It's a euphemism for sexual desire and he kept it polite, but I got nothing to hide, and maybe I went too far, but unnecessary shame is something to overcome.

I have to remind myself that I did nothing wrong, and am just working on being more outspoken and truthful.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2013 17:08

Don't feel embarassed, you are only human and at least you didn't say "wank" or something like that. At least you had the balls to come out with it. Besides, I think this thread is appropriate for that. "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 17:16

I wish I had the balls to keep my original post.
I just edited my original post, because I kept waking up feeling regrets about it. It goes to show just how hard it is to talk about, even though it's natural. We do suppress it a lot, and like to keep things secret from others. In my own head, I'm fine with it though. I just felt embarrassed knowing others all over the world could read about it.

But at least you read it and I bet a few others did to. No need for the whole world to hear about it.

What would the psychoanalysts say about me?
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 17:27

Summerlander wrote: "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:


Guys in Speedos! :lol:
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby Summerlander » 29 Oct 2013 17:32

Psychoanalysts wouldn't think any less of you and neither do I. Imagine how Sabina Spielrein felt when she confided to Carl Jung that she had felt aroused when her father spanked her. For years she felt like a freak. But calling someone names when they are unusual (and remember, your case is very common) isn't helpful. Acceptance is a way to move forward. Eventually, the quirks are no longer an issue and stop taking up much of your time.

HAGART wrote:
Summerlander wrote: "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:


Guys in Speedos! :lol:


LMAO! :D
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Postby HAGART » 29 Oct 2013 17:40

Now that I omitted and edited my first post, nobody knows what I said and might think I was talking about my spanking fetishes! :oops: (My fault for that.)

I was watching Conan the other day, and he mentioned that face book allows violent videos, but has banned any breast feeding videos. What does that say about society?

You can make a video game where people are ripped in half with blood everywhere, and parents don't mind so much. But show a booby and then it becomes disgusting and unacceptable!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.


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