Where is the Universe?

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Jack Reacher
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Where is the Universe?

Postby Jack Reacher » 03 Nov 2013 05:32

By Universe, I mean the structure that contains everything that exists.
"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

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HAGART
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby HAGART » 03 Nov 2013 06:12

Where something is in the universe is relative to the other 'things' around it.
But what about the whole universe itself? The entire structure including time. It's relative to absolutely nothing at all beyond the universe. If there was something else... THAT WOULD STILL BE THE UNIVERSE! :shock: :o :shock:

(My mind exploded.....)
Something doesn't quite add up to me when it comes to how we describe our universe, but I can't put my finger on it right now, and perhaps never will.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Nov 2013 06:14

Good question.

In order to determine where anything is, you need reference points. If you were floating around in space, it would be impossible to determine your location unless you could reference it to something else. You could be traveling at some speed, but again unless there was a reference point you wouldn't know how fast. So unless you can step outside of the universe and measure it's location from some reference points, I don't know how you can determine where it is. Maybe it has no location at all.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Nov 2013 06:15

HAGART wrote:Where something is in the universe is relative to the other 'things' around it.
But what about the whole universe itself? The entire structure including time. It's relative to absolutely nothing at all beyond the universe. If there was something else... THAT WOULD STILL BE THE UNIVERSE! :shock: :o :shock:

(My mind exploded.....)
Something doesn't quite add up to me when it comes to how we describe our universe, but I can't put my finger on it right now, and perhaps never will.


That's funny, we both wrote our responses at the same time, when I posted I got the message about considering your post. :)
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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HAGART
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby HAGART » 03 Nov 2013 06:30

And both were very similar too.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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lucidinthe sky
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby lucidinthe sky » 03 Nov 2013 07:39

I've been thinking a lot about reference points as it applies to our dreams. I was watching a video about the philosophy of the matrix and a person said something very interesting about dreams so I wrote it down: "There are no general features that you can use from a within a dream to be certain that you are dreaming." It's of course a very simple truth that we all know and have experienced, but it gets back to the reference point concept. The dream reality is always referenced to the waking life reality, yet it is not distinguishable as being a dream. I struggle with this whole thing when I am lucid dreaming, trying to create some way to locate myself in relation to waking physical reality, not just in terms of where I am, but where the reality around me is located. Of course we know it all exists inside of ourselves, wherever that is.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

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Summerlander
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Re: Where is the Universe?

Postby Summerlander » 03 Nov 2013 17:00

It is like asking where the impossible perspective of viewing everything outside space and time is. If one could do this in principle, there would be no time let alone space to house the observer. In other words it cannot be done because there would be no space to house the observer, and no time for the observer to be there, as these are properties of the universe itself. Unless, of course, there is space and time outside the universe...or beyond... in which case, as Hagart pointed out, it wouldn't be outside of it, but rather, an extension of it (and thus part of "all there is").

If we are going to answer this topic's question logically, without getting too pedantic, we could simplistically define "universe" as "observable universe." This way, we could surmise that our universe is just a drop in an ocean of possibilities - or a multiverse. Other drops could have different properties, even different physical laws. But being outside our known universe to be able to see it from a point in the unexplored multiverse is not exactly acquiring the perspective outside the structure that constitutes everything. It means that we are still within a tangible something that exists and is a part of everything.

The very essence of space and time is what defines us as illusory selves and observers. If the "outsider" perspective (meaning outside "all there is") could be attained, we would be able to see, within a little portion of the universal structure, our birth at one end and our corpse at the other...

This implies that time, as something that passes, is an illusion, and that past, present, and future (or any point within the space-time structure) is equally real. From the impossible outside perspective, one would be able to see all the frames of space (with its objects) that are not synchronised (as we say, "occurring at different times"). Within the universe, time is like a river that flows one way. Outside, this illusion is shattered. Nothing flows, it is all static. Perspective and perception is everything when arriving at conclusions. What seems intuitively real to us may not be so objectively.

Hence the need to think outside the box sometimes.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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