If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will be?

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Summerlander
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby Summerlander » 24 Dec 2013 01:43

What makes you believe in reincarnation?

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torakrubik
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby torakrubik » 25 Dec 2013 00:39

Just to add my two cents (can't believe I haven't posted here yet!), I think we have an integral 'soul' (for want of a better word) that travels to a different plane of existence when we die. Moreover, I posit that this plane in fact hosts the dreamscape in which our 'soul' visits when we dream.
This, for me, provides an explanation for communication with the deceased (note that many anecdotal cases can still be attributed to interactions with generated DCs and not actual people under this assumption). But that's a slightly different topic.
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CookieMonster:3
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby CookieMonster:3 » 25 Dec 2013 01:17

Summerlander wrote:What makes you believe in reincarnation?

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For one thing, I am quite certain there is a such thing as a soul. I think that the soul inhabits the body. Our bodies are basically just a shell. The soul is what brings our body to life. And also I experience de ja vu moments a lot. It just kind of freaks me out sometimes; how vividly I feel like I've done that before, yet I know I haven't. I don't really have proof. I mean, you can't prove what's after death because no one comes back a month after they die to tell us living people all about it. I just believe in it. Not a very good answer, haha, but I just do.

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Summerlander
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby Summerlander » 25 Dec 2013 11:09

But how can you believe without proof. A worm is alive and there isn't enough power in their little brains to be intelligent (and chances are that they haven't got the slightest smidgeon of consciousness - and note that we too can become unconscious with our larger and more complex brains).

I'm not here to say you are wrong about the soul, but, let's face it, there is no evidence that such thing exists. What I'm really trying to understand is, how can you believe or be sure that something exists without proof?

Unless, of course, deep down you are not really sure but you want it to be true. In which case, it's not belief, it's wishful thinking. It's like a kid being told at school that his parents died in an accident and he doesn't want to believe it. Instead, he finds solace in his teacher telling, "They're okay, they've gone away for a while, you'll see them again one day."

How can the teacher guarantee that if you catch my drift. Moreover, you can see how easily it is for the kid to "believe" his parents are alive and well.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby CookieMonster:3 » 27 Dec 2013 07:54

Summerlander wrote:But how can you believe without proof. A worm is alive and there isn't enough power in their little brains to be intelligent (and chances are that they haven't got the slightest smidgeon of consciousness - and note that we too can become unconscious with our larger and more complex brains).

I'm not here to say you are wrong about the soul, but, let's face it, there is no evidence that such thing exists. What I'm really trying to understand is, how can you believe or be sure that something exists without proof?

Unless, of course, deep down you are not really sure but you want it to be true. In which case, it's not belief, it's wishful thinking. It's like a kid being told at school that his parents died in an accident and he doesn't want to believe it. Instead, he finds solace in his teacher telling, "They're okay, they've gone away for a while, you'll see them again one day."

How can the teacher guarantee that if you catch my drift. Moreover, you can see how easily it is for the kid to "believe" his parents are alive and well.

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You're right, to be honest. Truth is, I'm only a teenager who happened to read a book that really got her thinking about after death. And truth is, what's after death scares me. There's no one to come back and tell us what happened or who they saw. I have no proof. I'm not trying to insist upon the idea that reincarnation could be true. Maybe it is wishful thinking. I'm not sure. Just something deep down draws me to that belief.

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torakrubik
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby torakrubik » 28 Dec 2013 00:41

I think that the 'soul' is just an extremely advanced biochemical structure, perhaps even more complicated than we can possibly comprehend, so much so that it generates conciousness, emotions etc. It's difficult to get my head around but i have no other explanation.
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Summerlander
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby Summerlander » 28 Dec 2013 11:09

Assuming the soul exists as a complex biochemical structure (it could even be made of dark matter and thus hard to detect), it is still no sort of explanation for consciousness. Why? Because then you have to ask: How does it generate consciousness? How is the soul conscious?

If you are not going to be satisfied with the plausibility that the brain, which is complex enough with its millions of years of evolution, is responsible for consciousness, why would you assign that responsibility to something that hasn't even been shown to exist such as the soul?

The brain is real enough, tangible enough, and open to measurements for all to see. Even my little 'dark matter hypothesis' there seems infeasible given that the dark stuff is made of particles that weakly interact with "normal" matter through gravity (WIMPs).

I'm only thinking in terms of viability here folks. I don't like to see people jumping to conclusions from speculation.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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torakrubik
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby torakrubik » 29 Dec 2013 00:49

Summerlander wrote:Assuming the soul exists as a complex biochemical structure (it could even be made of dark matter and thus hard to detect), it is still no sort of explanation for consciousness. Why? Because then you have to ask: How does it generate consciousness? How is the soul conscious?

If you are not going to be satisfied with the plausibility that the brain, which is complex enough with its millions of years of evolution, is responsible for consciousness, why would you assign that responsibility to something that hasn't even been shown to exist such as the soul?

The brain is real enough, tangible enough, and open to measurements for all to see. Even my little 'dark matter hypothesis' there seems infeasible given that the dark stuff is made of particles that weakly interact with "normal" matter through gravity (WIMPs).

I'm only thinking in terms of viability here folks. I don't like to see people jumping to conclusions from speculation.

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I fear I may have mislead you, allow me to reword and expand.

Words such as 'soul' and 'structure' were used in only the very broadest sense.

I posit that the brain itself generates a conciousness capable of transcending planes/dimensions (whatever you wish to name them), one of these planes being where we dream. Whether this conciousness is generated by neurotic processes largely shrouded in mystery from science thus far, dark matter or whatever, let us assume that it exists. Perhaps the brain is not involved at all, but somehow we have this conciousness, and the brain seems to be to be a pretty obvious place to 'host' it from, so to speak. There is enough unknown about the brain for this hypothesis not to be completely ruled out, however I don't wish to get scientific here, largely because there is none to support this, which I freely admit. It is, after all, just a hypothesis.

There, I have managed to explain myself a little better without evening mentioning the uncomfortably ambiguous 'soul' :) I hope that this is clearer.
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Summerlander
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby Summerlander » 29 Dec 2013 03:12

Ahh! Gotcha.

So you're saying this consciousness is something that can possibly be detected or measured rather than just being some illusion?

Consciousness, whatever it is, obviously plays a part in the physical world if we assume it to be something as real as electricity. Even if we assume that it transcends this reality and is capable of occupying another realm (let's just assume for a moment, dreamland), it still stems from the inner workings of the brain. In other words, its roots dwell in the physical universe and should, therefore, be detectable.

While scientists cool atoms in order to minimise their vibrations in the hope of detecting dark matter collisions underground, neuroscientists work to identify the neural correlates of consciousness. There is one problem though. While physicists can produce a plausible

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: If you believe in afterlife, what do you think it will b

Postby Summerlander » 29 Dec 2013 03:21

*sorry, phone playing up*

...plausible picture, with properties and dynamics for WIMPs (dark matter particles) - meaning they have an idea what to look for - neuroscientists cannot fathom what to look for in the brain that defines consciousness.

I believe the root of the problem is obvious: A) Consciousness is poorly defined and for all we know it could be as illusory as the "wetness" of water (H2O molecules, not to mention its atoms, are not wet); and B) No self, or anything that can be identified as such, is found in the brain, but it seems real and it certainly comes under threat if the human cortex is damaged.

Before we can say there is an afterlife or souls for sure, we need to answer this question: What is consciousness?

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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