Time for a deep discussion.

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Peter
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Peter » 30 Jan 2014 03:14

I read about it.
I would think about it, work out what I thought was correct, change my mind and then just pick one based on nothing
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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HAGART
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby HAGART » 30 Jan 2014 03:23

There is no hijacking in a thread like this. Anything goes.
I see a good discussion between a scientific approach and a philosophical approach. A left brain perspective verses right brain. (I happen to be more right brained, myself). I like someone who pokes holes in my ideas until it doesn't hold water. It's up to me to figure out if I can plug them or not. I think Peter is the same way, but when it comes to 'The Void' it's just semantics and you can't nit-pick the wording of it.

I like these excerpts from Summerlanders posts:

Summerlander wrote:we see the universe the way it is because if it were any different, we wouldn't be here to see it

I can dislike how the universe is a mystery to me, but no matter my opinion of it, it has to be the way it is. It just HAS to be! Otherwise I wouldn't even be here pondering it!
Summerlander wrote:"What would a world be like without perception?"

Even if I was a baby in a womb, I may still perceive hunger or feel a need to kick for some reason. (Babies do that for some reason). Babies in a womb do perceive something, even if it's internal desires. A brain in a jar may still perceive, but it would be solely internal, introspective thoughts only. That would be their universe to them. And with an imaginative, human brain, they may just create their own reality.
Summerlander wrote:And the idea that the universe has the sole purpose of creating conscious beings

This is something I wrestle with. Why is there life at all? It seems the whole universe is in a constant state of seeking homeostasis. Is life the perfect balance of matter and energy and is it inevitable that the whole universe will become a large organism and perhaps it has happened already. Is the universe one gigantic consciousness?

Here's another thought about consciousness:
You don't need an organic body to be conscious. You can create one in a computer. (Although HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey hasn't been made it's still very possible). And if something is possible, no matter how improbable, given that time is infinite, it not only will happen, but already has! 8-)


(These are just more deep thoughts to ponder. My right brain imagination comes up with it, but I don't mind someone shooting holes in it. This is actually a form of entertainment for me. :D I don't watch sports and don't care what a Kardashian is doing. Let's try and solve the mysteries of life and perception of this thing we call, 'universe'. It's far more enthralling.)
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Summerlander » 30 Jan 2014 16:01

Peter wrote:I read about it.
I would think about it, work out what I thought was correct, change my mind and then just pick one based on nothing


A lot of people just assume it's a 50-50 scenario, which in a way it is if you never picked a door and just see doors 1 and 3 open, but, if you play the game from the beginning and you assume it's 50-50, you are failing to see the problem of probability here.

I'll show you another angle which bears in mind that the host knows what's behind the doors. When you first pick door 1 you have a 2/3 chance of picking a goat. This translates as, you have probably picked a goat. The host will avoid the prize by revealing the other goat (door 2) and offer you to switch. Probability dictates that you should switch based on your initial chances. If door 2 reveals a goat, door 3 has to be the opposite of door 1 - meaning door 3 offers you a 2/3 chance of winning the car. Paul Erdos, one of the greatest mathematicians who wasn't convinced by the argument I just posed until he saw a computer simulation confirming the predicted result.

I know it seems counterintuitive but it's true. Switching benefits you if you picked a goat. If, however, you hit the jackpot to begin with by picking the car (unlikely), then sticking is the right choice (but you don't know that). You see the paradox now when you're in Monty Hall's game show?

HAGART wrote:Why is there life at all? It seems the whole universe is in a constant state of seeking homeostasis. Is life the perfect balance of matter and energy and is it inevitable that the whole universe will become a large organism and perhaps it has happened already. Is the universe one gigantic consciousness?


Why is there life? Because the laws of this universe just happen to permit the stumbling upon complex atomic structures such as carbon. I don't think the universe seeks anything. Homeostasis is something that propagates via evolution's natural selection (or natural preservation). The environmental conditions within the thin atmospheric layer of this tiny warm planet allowed for bacteria-based creatures such as us to survive (don't ask me about eucaryotes - I'm not a biologist although I got a B in science). But ask yourself this question: What would happen if 530 million years ago the first vertebrate creature, our eel-like ancestor called Pikaia Gracilens, was suddenly placed in the vacuum of space by cruel aliens? The creature would instantly die and we would not be here today.

What I'm trying to say is that life could still be rare in the universe, and, for the most part, our universe is hostile to life. We barely have hospitable conditions here on Earth!

As for our universe being part of a huge living organism... Well, it's possible. It can't be ruled out. Our universe could be a brain cell inside the head of someone who lives in a larger universe and happens to be lucid dreaming right now! :shock:

But what scientific evidence currently predicts is the destruction of the universe as we know it as it continues to expand indefinitely. Trillions of years from now, anyone who lives in our galaxy will not be able to see other galaxies out there, even with a powerful telescope. The rate of expansion will outdo the speed of light. (Special relativity does not permit this but general relativity does.) So, the fate of our universe barely holds any promise of life expansion, or the prospect of myriad civilisations thriving and conquering the cosmos - let alone a scenario where consciousness becomes rife. Cosmic prognostication: the universe expands and the mysterious dark energy furore makes sure that all stars die out.

The grand scheme of things makes the universe look like a pointless explosion in existence... :geek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Thinker
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Thinker » 30 Jan 2014 18:31

I still not finished reading all things you two said, but just an off-topic:

Once, I heard Dawkins saying that scientists don't know yet the evolutionary causes of the appearing of consciouness. Summerlander, what do you thing about this?
Humans had to have some advantage in their enviroment by having consciouness or no? It's some consequence off other processes?

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HAGART
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby HAGART » 30 Jan 2014 19:06

I think it all has to do with tool making abilities which made us superior. There is evidence that we are a different breed from other smart apes like Neanderthals and we wiped them out. A sharpened rock in the form of a spear head and a tank factory are one in the same. That's what our level of consciousness has brought us with logic, memory and self awareness. But you don't need it to survive. Ants live quite well without it and I think they are conscious, albeit mostly just automatons living in a non-lucid dream of reality. They don't question why they do things; they just do it because it feels right. We could do the same and follow our primal instincts without question and survive.

This is still on-topic on the off-topic because discussing life and imagining how they perceive their version of reality is what this is all about.

But like I said: Whenever I try to answer something it opens more questions. This is self perpetuating and this philosophical stuff can go on forever and has been discussed long before we were ever born. But it's fun for me and if it's not for anyone else, then take a break or ignore this.

I will now look up Dawkins and see if I am close or way off mark, but I like to state my own opinion before I hear others.

(And I'm still thinking about the homeostasis of the universe and how our bodies and minds do the same, but I need to think about it more before I respond. I'm not done with that! 8-) )
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Summerlander
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Summerlander » 30 Jan 2014 20:17

Hi, Thinker!

Dawkins is right and I did touch upon that mystery earlier in this thread. The trouble is that consciousness is still poorly defined even before we begin to understand how causes such phenomenon (whether a strong illusion or not).

My take is that, if consciousness is not merely a useless byproduct or symptom of an increasingly complex organism, then it might be a byproduct that nature dictates we should have which is paving the way for something else in our evolution which may help us to become ultra-adaptive to our environment. But there is no evidence for this hypothesis.

Dawkins can see that organisma are quite capable of complex tasks without requiring consciousness. Sleepwalkers, who happen to be in delta sleep appended by spindles of activity, are capable of complex tasks without being conscious. (To provide a cogent example.)

So consciousness seems more like symptom of the natural world rather than a useful tool that actually makes a change. Perhaps what is of evolutionary value is memory - and consciousness just happens to be memory gone too far (a symptom of

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Summerlander
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Summerlander » 30 Jan 2014 20:18

..a symptom of superfluity.)

*sorry guys, my phone being a bitch again.*

[ Post made via Android ] Image
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Peter
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Peter » 30 Jan 2014 20:38

I had a good read of that puzzle a while back and I think the key is that when the first door is opened and 2 are left you are still dealing with the fact that you started with 3 and probability is based on the start of the game. It was a interesting insight and yes I would have got it wrong but would have played the game out of fun.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Peter
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Peter » 30 Jan 2014 20:41

I sometimes wonder if consciousness at first occurred in a few humans in the way it does in the dream state. We might be totally missing the point here and we are seeing in real time the formation of a new consciousness in humans developing as we dream and become aware. There is a critical mass forming in recent years and that may bring about a change on a big scale.
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

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Peter
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Re: Time for a deep discussion.

Postby Peter » 30 Jan 2014 20:47

The creature would instantly die and we would not be here today.


True if you assume one vision of how life evolved on this planet. Take another view for the sake of debate and create another version in you mind and see what it looks like.

Why could we not have been placed here in some early stage of development to see what would happen ?
What fact would agree with this line of thinking (Black Swan theory)
Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born


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