Death

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Summerlander
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Re: Death

Postby Summerlander » 21 May 2014 00:46

Going back to your reply to my post above, Maker, I'll give you my reasons why I think the computer analogy isn't a good one: the operator can be observed controlling the hardware and how this one affects the software can be understood (no self is found in the brain which shows the Cartesian model to be a much outdated hypothetical scenario only); a computer is nowhere near as complex as the brain; a brain is constantly changing; if you don't remember something, you are no longer conscious of it; scientists have found the subatomic Higgs (and yet, no "operator" is found in the brain; a soul would not explain consciousness nor free will because one would have to ask, "what makes the soul conscious?" "Another operator inside it and another one inside this one ad infinitum?" (makes no sense); a soul with a sense of free will would still find the origin of its urges mysterious and have doubts about free will, too.

All of this brings me to my next point: just because science still has an awful lot to suss out does not make the concept of an afterlife any more probable and gives us no reason to readily believe it (especially when overwhelming evidence points to the contrary). Hypothetically, a quantum mechanical configuration may stumble upon a proto-consciousness (Penrose "roots"), but, it is quite clear that a Tonomian system of interaction is required on a classical level within a complex organ such as the brain in order for actual consciousness to come to fruition. Something ticking like a Newton's cradle through time where memories come and go and may return (but never the same as the original experience).

Finally, and sorry to shatter yet again another product of wishful thinking, I don't know about the various ways in which the passage of time may be perceived during the dying process, but, if the pseudo-afterlife is anything like lucid dreaming, then you may only have a few minutes of relishing the delusion that you have somehow survived death - before being gradually ushered out into unconsciousness.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 21 May 2014 02:21

When we think of life and death we must also think about how we perceive time.
Our sense of time is based on our speed of thought. If I could speed up my thought processing x60, a second would feel like a minute, wouldn't it? Slow it down, and an hour would pass in 'fast forward' and feel like a minute.

The universe only appears to be stagnant because it is moving incredibly slow, but in actuality, it all depends on perception. Without any life to perceive it, the universe would begin and end in an instant as if it never happened. :o

When the brain shuts down during death, and possibly releases it's reserve of DMT, who knows how time will be perceived and maybe you do have a very long after-life trip that may seem to last forever. But what happens if a nuclear bomb is strapped to your forehead and detonated.... then what? It would be like life never happened in the first place and for all intense and purposes neither did the universe! :o
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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MAKER
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Re: Death

Postby MAKER » 21 May 2014 05:04

HAGART wrote:Our sense of time is based on our speed of thought. If I could speed up my thought processing x60, a second would feel like a minute, wouldn't it? Slow it down, and an hour would pass in 'fast forward' and feel like a minute.

The universe only appears to be stagnant because it is moving incredibly slow, but in actuality, it all depends on perception. Without any life to perceive it, the universe would begin and end in an instant as if it never happened.


That's exactly what I meant by saying that time could possibly be skewed during DMT release at the time just before brain death, giving rise to a pseudo-afterlife. Although an eternity was experienced, it was just the perception of an eternity. I remember my uncle talking to me about the universe happening all at once when I was wee li'l lad, although I didn't fully understand it then.

Summerlander wrote:I'll give you my reasons why I think the computer analogy isn't a good one


I wasn't necessarily proposing that it was a good model for an afterlife, just trying to articulate the idea that consciousness may preclude physical form, yet use physical forms to experience a physical reality. Yet even this is purely conjecture based on present knowledge. I don't proclaim myself to be one of the intellectual elite, I just read and ponder ideas :D .

Something similar that I was reading today was an idea proposed by Robert Lanza's theory of Biocentrism in which he uses quantum mechanics to forge a new understanding of life, death, and consciousness:
"It is the belief that life and biology are central to reality and that life creates the universe, not the other way round."
Here is the full article if anybody is interested:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2503370/Quantum-physics-proves-IS-afterlife-claims-scientist.html#ixzz32Jn9QV4K

Summerlander wrote:All of this brings me to my next point: just because science still has an awful lot to suss out does not make the concept of an afterlife any more probable and gives us no reason to readily believe it (especially when overwhelming evidence points to the contrary).


I agree completely, but conversely, one shouldn't believe in the opposite because there is no evidence for the other (yet). Belief can be a trap one way or the other, and has proven to be limiting to the pursuit of actual knowledge. I prefer the term wishful thinking, since it leaves room for change and restructure with newly found evidence, experience, etc.


I knew that there would be no definitive answer to the discussion topic I put forth, and I guess it can go one of two ways:

Either materialism is 100% correct, and at the time of physical death all conscious experience ceases to exist.

or

Consciousness is somehow responsible for physical reality (and any other possible realities) and there is some form of conscious experience (although not necessarily a human form of consciousness) that is not subject to physical death.

One way or the other, the mystery of it all gives me that tingly feeling in my gut. Experience past physical reality would be an awesome adventure to be had, yet the absence of experience really doesn't seem all that bad either...lazing away eternity in the abyss of nothingness (although I wouldn't even know it :mrgreen: ).

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Summerlander
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Re: Death

Postby Summerlander » 21 May 2014 14:16

Lanza's "life creates the universe and not the other way around" is a major fallacy. We know that, shortly after the big bang, a plasma of energy began to form the lightest elements but that wasn't enough for life to emerge. In fact, it took billions of years before life could emerge anywhere in the universe. Why? Because the heavier elements that help to form life can only be forged inside the cores of stars that eventually explode. Hence the reason why we are literally "children of the stars."

Quantum mechanics doesn't prove that consciousness creates reality either. The observer could be just a matter of perspective, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory still struggles with relational approaches, and the many-worlds interpretation is just as valid (although it is still lacking direct verification that othrr universes do exist).

Sorry, but, I am only trying to prevent our brains from falling out while we engage in open-minded conversation...

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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MAKER
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Re: Death

Postby MAKER » 21 May 2014 19:32

Summerlander wrote:Sorry, but, I am only trying to prevent our brains from falling out while we engage in open-minded conversation...


Haha I've heard that expression before..."be open-minded, but not so much that your brain falls out."

To be honest, I love entertaining all ideas. I guess a type of intellectual masturbation? If it falls out, I'll adhere to the 5 second rule :D .

Summerlander wrote:We know that, shortly after the big bang, a plasma of energy began to form the lightest elements but that wasn't enough for life to emerge.


I don't mean to nit-pic, but isn't the big bang still just a theory? Albeit the leading theory that has the most accepted evidence in support. Not trying to be contradicting to facts, but isn't it a possibility that it could turn out to be partially, or in the extreme completely, false in light of new evidence?

For awhile it was a leading theory, and for some a "fact," that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Scientific theories are always subject to change. I'm still waiting the promised "theory-of-everything" from the 30's that is always "right around the corner."

Summerlander wrote:Lanza's "life creates the universe and not the other way around" is a major fallacy.


This may be a truth, but then again consciousness is still a mystery to science. There's many explanations, hypothesis, and theories, but no concrete knowledge of how/why/what/when consciousness came to be.

Summerlander wrote:In fact, it took billions of years before life could emerge anywhere in the universe. Why? Because the heavier elements that help to form life can only be forged inside the cores of stars that eventually explode. Hence the reason why we are literally "children of the stars."


Life as we know it, yes. But is it not a possibility that life exists in other forms that we are not aware of yet? What constitutes life? I know this may sound far out, but again just for conversation, could it be a possibility that stars and planets have some form of "life?" The galaxies? And on a grander scale, the universe(s)? Maybe not as we would consider biological life here on Earth, but a different form of. The universe is a big place compared to our little planet, and so far, most of scientific study has been limited to a humanistic view right here on this planet. Humanity has achieved much knowledge, but wouldn't it be a tiny bit on the arrogant side to claim to know concretely how things have come to be without full knowledge of the universe?

If everything was known and completely understood, there would be no further research to be had, but truthfully, there is much more to be known about this mystery we were all thrown into. Again, I'm not an intellectual elite...but I sure love to piggy back the ideas of all the smart MF-ers :) . Even if they are wrong, some stuff is still fun to toss around in the ol' noggin.

Summerlander wrote:Quantum mechanics doesn't prove that consciousness creates reality either.


Not fully...but isn't it still trying to be understood completely by leading scientists/physicists? I'm open to the possibility that it will at least usher in a new way of looking at consciousness, so that maybe a new approach will bring in a more sound understanding. We have come a long way in the past 100years, I can only imagine what the next 1000 years will bring to light.

You and Haggart have a lot of knowledge, beliefs, understandings, so I appreciate all that you are contributing. A very thought-provoking conversation! I also wonder if you two are the only ones brave enough to open a discussion labeled death :lol: . No one else has stated their beliefs/experiences/etc. :( .

In reference to my experience, when I was near to passing out and had the assumption that I was going to kick the bucket right there on that hotel bathroom floor, why did that feeling of overwhelming peace rush over me? I've never been afraid of death, but to feel that amount of peace and contentment seems quite strange. Could that be part of our evolutionary wiring, or could it be explained as just a subjective perspective limited to that one experience?
Last edited by MAKER on 23 May 2014 06:57, edited 1 time in total.

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 23 May 2014 03:19

I'm behind on the posts... but I'll catch up and edit and add to this as I go.

MAKER wrote:"It is the belief that life and biology are central to reality and that life creates the universe, not the other way round."


I've come to that same conclusion. Hard to prove, but I just FEEL it. It has to be! The universe doesn't exist (time, matter, space, energy, waves.......) unless something, anything, perceives it! So what is it without consciousness? Maybe it is consciousness. The universe is perceiving itself!

(Don't care about common day ideas. It was common idea that the world was flat and was the center of the universe! I'm just shooting the breeze, and we're laying on our backs, looking up at the stars, and telling campfire stories for fun. :D )

But that's my current belief.

------------

MAKER wrote:One way or the other, the mystery of it all gives me that tingly feeling in my gut. Experience past physical reality would be an awesome adventure to be had, yet the absence of experience really doesn't seem all that bad either...lazing away eternity in the abyss of nothingness (although I wouldn't even know it :mrgreen: )


Don't give up on your gut. I believe intuition is the mother of invention, not necessity. Let pragmatic scientists sort it out, but I'm an idea-man, and it's OK to come up with far out ideas. No one should fault us for just ideas. And what you said is nothing new to me. When I die, (if time allows it ;) ), I wouldn't know it anyway now would I? Exactly WHEN in the infinite spectrum of the fractal of time does 'someone' die anyway?! :o



-----

I honestly wrote all that without hearing the full dialogue. Now I am up to speed and it's no surprise, me and MAKER have similar ways of expressing ourselves since we have the same personality. (From that other Off-Topic post). But I know Summerlander too, and although uses many quotes and data to back up his ideas, wouldn't be here, interested, if he wasn't one of us. I have a cousin like that too, who always uses quotes from great thinkers to debunk my theories and I welcome it! In fact, I love it! We need a good fact checker to keep us in check.

For me, it all goes back to my same analogy. We're just sitting around a campfire and shooting the breeze. :D

Now what is the fire made of, and what is light and heat unless one is there to experience it.... :o
It goes full circle, and this iceberg has only shown it's tip, and it can take a lifetime to figure it out and great philosophers from the past have devoted their lives to it, and they were still in the dark.

It's a good talk, and has influenced some of my lucid dreams lately. I'd share them, but I too found no answer and they were very abstract, without a concrete DC discussion... so hard to comprehend, even for me. They were just images and feelings, but lucid, and me questioning 'non-existence'!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 23 May 2014 04:59

I like quotes to back up my ideas too, and although depressing, this was in my head for the past few days.

"We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots". - Shakespeare.

Sad, but true. ;) 8-)

It's the circle of life and everything in between!
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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MAKER
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Re: Death

Postby MAKER » 23 May 2014 06:32

HAGART wrote:I've come to that same conclusion. Hard to prove, but I just FEEL it. It has to be! The universe doesn't exist (time, matter, space, energy, waves.......) unless something, anything, perceives it! So what is it without consciousness? Maybe it is consciousness. The universe is perceiving itself!


I like the idea, and I've wondered for awhile if matter gives rise to consciousness, or if consciousness gives rise to matter... and depending on the answer, would the universe exist if there were no conscious observers?
If the latter turns out to be true, and there is some sort of experiential consciousness after physical death, I'm going to cruise the universe(s). This conversation has led me to taking in as many NDE's I can find...and a lot have experienced dead relatives, angels, etc. all leading them somewhere, BUT if this happens for me, I'm gonna say no to any "party" invites and cruise around experiencing all I want/can. Ol' Grandma and Grandpa will be saying, "Come with us, we are here to take you to heaven." My response: Nope. I gots stuffs to checks outs. :lol:

Like I said earlier, I definitely would like this to be true, although I admit to wishful thinking. I'd rather know and understand the truth, rather than continue to wishfully think.

HAGART wrote:We're just sitting around a campfire and shooting the breeze.


Love the analogy. I need to find people like you and Summerlander in my physical reality, not just my virtual reality. Sharing hypothetical ideas about the mystery of life is a very intriguing and precious aspect of the human experience. It seems too rare in current society.

HAGART wrote:It's a good talk, and has influenced some of my lucid dreams lately.


You lucky son of a gun! I've had a dry spell lately, and not even my trusty McDILD method has been fruitful :) . I've been setting bedtime intentions for even a regular dream with some sort of relation to the topic, but nada as of yet.

I found an interesting discussion that dates back to 2012 that relates to this topic, although it was based on a poll about thoughts on religion. There's a lot of really good ideas, and I noticed Summerlander posted a few times (There's 64 pages, so I haven't quite read every single one). Here's the link if anyone is interested:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1014

An idea that was discussed was in relation to the universe not existing if there were no conscious observers, but how did the universe decide to create consciousness (ie conscious observers) if it were not already conscious? We are the universe getting to know itself quite literally.

Sometimes I wonder if "God" is just a poetic expression of the expansive permeation of consciousness that was understood by a few extremely smart people, but has been perverted and misunderstood by a large amount of "average" smart people.

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HAGART
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Re: Death

Postby HAGART » 23 May 2014 07:27

"GOD" was founded in a dream and is an archetype. Ever notice how (a Christian God, for example) looks like Zues? And any other God, who fits that description, has been proven to not exist in other cultures, and is regarded as fairytale. But apparently only one always exists and it's the true God. The God of America? (I know you Maker, and Summerlander, so we are on the same page, so stick with this.... I have a point.)

I've noticed one thing in common with them all: They all have beards! :P It's just the 'old-man' archetype that we look up to and adore. A Grandpa figure, if you will. It comes from deep within.

I see them in lucid dreams all the time.

I'm preaching to the choir with you two, but for anyone else listening.... truly listen!
I know I'm right!

( I didn't respond fully to what you said, MAKER. I like to cause trouble for others listening in! LOL ) ;)
Again, I know I'm right! )

But it also relates to the main topic. I already shared my traumatic experience and we are friends...

But I still think, love it or hate it, that we are all robots, incapable of controlling our hair and nail growth much like a plant, and self awareness may actually be a curse, not a blessing. And to bring it all together, "I may go to hell for what I said (in some cultures),... but at least I'll be with my friends down there." :D

I don't believe in God, and when I die, if there is an afterlife at all, the way the Bible describes it, I'll be partying with a ton of sinners. And sinners throw great parties! 8-)

(Given my belief though, there will be incomprehensible nothingness... so what the hell? I GOT NOTHING TO LOSE! ;)
Last edited by HAGART on 23 May 2014 07:56, edited 1 time in total.
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MAKER
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Re: Death

Postby MAKER » 23 May 2014 07:54

HAGART wrote:"I may go to hell for what I said (in some cultures),... but at least I'll be with my friends down there."


If we are already dead, what real "power" would any hell have over us? Resistance by non-compliance! Let's just break out and start our own club...we could call it the "Hell's Angels." Would have to check with copy write though :lol: .

HAGART wrote:But I still think, love it or hate it, that we are all robots, incapable of controlling our hair and nail growth much like a plant, and self awareness may actually be a curse, not a blessing.


Robots longing for the truth of our existence.
Perceiving any amount of control is just an illusion. We can interact, but cause and effect has the ultimate control. Total acceptance may be the key to our enlightenment.


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