What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

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Xizt
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What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby Xizt » 05 Jun 2014 17:34

I've been struggling with LD'ing for over a week now. So I decided to try astral projection. The first time I try Astral Projection, during the day after a full nights of rest, I succeed and it lasted like 30 seconds. It was awesome and more vivid then one of the LD's I have. Everything was like in real life, by that I mean - my room, neighbors faces & clothes, the outside, etc.

Was it a type of LD too? Can you control things in the astral world, or is it really just the same thing as lucid dreaming?

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Goldkoron
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby Goldkoron » 05 Jun 2014 21:47

Astral Projection in my opinion is a fancy name for lucid dreaming. All the techniques proposed for astral projection are all just lucid dream techniques. People underestimate the powers of subconscious imagination and call it astral projection. That does not mean that paranormal things do not happen in dreams, I just do not think the whole astral projection thing is actually happening.
Do a reality check

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Summerlander
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby Summerlander » 06 Jun 2014 00:12

Yeah. Pretty much. Astral projection is just a fancy, belief-centric name for the experience which occurs during a hybrid phase state of the brain involving waking consciousness and dreaming. This peculiar phase state is also responsible for lucid dreaming, where the individual recognises the experience for what it really is while it's happening: just a dream, i.e a mental virtual reality and entirely subjective as far as we can tell.

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torakrubik
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby torakrubik » 06 Jun 2014 00:44

I don't have much to add except for my agreement with the previous posters. There's no evidence to suggest AP is anything different than vivid lucid dreaming. I know that there are many people who claim that it is a paranormal phenomenon but I personally have yet to be convinced.
Dreaming is my drug

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nesgirl
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby nesgirl » 06 Jun 2014 00:46

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Last edited by nesgirl on 21 May 2015 06:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Xizt
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby Xizt » 06 Jun 2014 11:12

nesgirl wrote:
Xizt wrote:I've been struggling with LD'ing for over a week now. So I decided to try astral projection. The first time I try Astral Projection, during the day after a full nights of rest, I succeed and it lasted like 30 seconds. It was awesome and more vivid then one of the LD's I have. Everything was like in real life, by that I mean - my room, neighbors faces & clothes, the outside, etc.

Was it a type of LD too? Can you control things in the astral world, or is it really just the same thing as lucid dreaming?

(takes a deep breath)

No. You were having a False Awakening, sorry.

You can however learn 2 different WILD techniques. It is entirely possible.

It is possible to see what looks like the real world in a Lucid Dream, in particular, in some WILDs it is very common for that to occur. I have WILDs like that very often where I simply observe just like that. My favorite WILD was the one I had was the one I had about flying down to my brother's graduation (and that pose he did). One does not have to control a Lucid Dream for it to be a Lucid Dream. You can simply observe and enjoy the scenery if you so desire.
One thing that some users enjoy doing (I am not one of the users who likes doing this) in WILDs like this is getting a random card in real life, shoving it into a dresser, looking at it in the WILD, and Pressing their Luck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjkPHltzNA) at probability (if you get it right, you won the game, but it still is NOT considered paranormal, sorry!! You were just REALLY lucky. Play that card game again if you are feeling lucky a second time!!)

I only had a 'false awakening' because I was expecting that - or? I woke up in my same room, except the bed was in a different spot (different items on the table, carpet, etc) I knew I was dreaming the same second I opened my eyes. I just wish it lasted more then 30 seconds, but definitely an improvement from my first 5 second-lasting lucid dream.

I have a question. If I wake up from my LD or false awakening, back in the relaxation state with mild sleep paralysis - should I just close my eyes and try to go back into a LD or is there more to it...

Everyone says to WILD after 5-6 hours of sleep and I always fail doing that. The only 2 times I've LD'd is a random day nap, not even physically tired. It really seems things like sleep cycles and certain dream only stages is hyped...

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nesgirl
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby nesgirl » 07 Jun 2014 02:13

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taniaaust1
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby taniaaust1 » 08 Jun 2014 00:51

You are asking your question on a LD site so it is very likely you are receiving a completely different answer then if you asked this same question about differences at a OBE website, so you may want to pay that in mind that those here may not generally have had a OBE so may be of the view they are the same thing.

For myself, I was into OBE before I got into LD and find there is a difference. Its like asking, what is the difference between physical reality and a dream.. well one is real and one is just made from ones own subconciousness projections (dreams).

By this I mean that with OBE I can intereact some with the physical reality eg OBE people can at times go and see real physical things etc, find out things they couldnt have otherwise known or seen before etc. People OBE have been known to go and pinch a physical person and leave a bruise (something which certainly cant be done if it was just a dream). People astral projected have been known to pose to a camera of a friend and have photos taken of them out of body etc etc (Ive seen a photo of that which someone at one of the groups I used to go to took).

Ive had my OBE experiences confirmed on 3 occassions that they were more then just a dream! What gets confusing is that some have LDs that they are OBE (LDs can be very vivid and feeling real like too)and I think this is why so many at a site such as this end up thinking they are the same thing. If you think you are having OBEs I suggest to do some experimentation to find out if you actually are doing so or not.

I also think there is confusion around these as just like it is possible in the physical world for someone to daydream while they are fully awake and start having some subconscious images or thoughts coming in (eg students will often start daydreaming at school while sitting behind a desk), its also possibly to have some subconciousness cross over when OBE. So it is possible for one to be experiencing some LD stuff at the same time as OBE stuff (thou this kind of thing will rapidly turn into just a LD if it goes on and one will loose the OBE state and connection to reality). So I guess that that too would end up confusing a lot of people and could well make people think they are the same. (In my own case I dont tend to get much cross over at all between the states.. but I said when this does happen, the person usually quickly looses the OBE state and just goes into a dream).

Anything with crossover, you cant trust what was subconciousness and what was OBE (as dream emotions can feel real too and unless one has another sense there to help tell what is real and what isnt, it may be hard to know what is what).

Anyway.. experiment.. it can be the best way to know if you are "just dreaming" or something more going on which just cant be explained by "dreaming".

If a person is OBE instead of LD, one would to take more care on what they are doing eg you wouldnt want to go around pinching everyone you were coming across if it was leaving real bruises on physical people and there is other stuff out there if the experience is real, one shouldnt mess with (Ive twice got myself into trouble with real physical people due to a OBE thing eg I made my boyfriend of that time very angry as he thought I'd spied on him while hiding a present.. I found it thou while OBE).

One can get oneself into trouble if one is having astral experiences and not dreams eg I was going throu the traditional wiccian training period before initiation with a high priest of that religion and got OBE and decided to visit him. I was new at everything and didnt know better to not do this. I didnt know he'd have his house warded, I knew nothing about wards or things like this!!. I ended up having a hellish OBE experience, one of the scariest experiences in my life because I got caught up in his ward and couldnt get out of it till I tried to contact him and communicate I didnt mean no harm (I didnt understand why something attacked me trying to visit him till he explained to me what had happened and why. He had it set up so nothing astral could enter his house without being caught.. if anyone has got the wrong idea.. we had this discussion next time we met.. it was a physical discussion over what had occurred).

That wasnt the only bad experience Ive had when "astral", I had another astral attack which left me physically blue in my lips and my face looking gastly etc (none of my nightmarish LDs have ever done stuff like that!). I dont think people should fear OBE thou, once again I was naive and had done something very stupid but which I knew no better and hence then had a bad OBE experience.

I dont think most need here need to worry about any of this as this is a LD site and people here tend to practice LD techniques (and not the energy raising ones which often lead to real OBEs). The good thing about LD is you should be able to do whatever you wish without no regative stuff coming onto your physical or physical life due to it. I like it more as I dont have to be responsible! and can do whatever I wish.

Everyone says to WILD after 5-6 hours of sleep and I always fail doing that. The only 2 times I've LD'd is a random day nap, not even physically tired. It really seems things like sleep cycles and certain dream only stages is hyped...


No not everyone says this. Im big on WILD and I always advise people to experiment and find the best time for them to do it. I think there is too much empasis put out around the place to do WBTB. I love doing my WILD during daytime, a nap time during the day is a perfect time for a WILD. (I do not like to wake myself up and do them in middle of the night when Im often feeling too tired). People get stuck in the thinking mode that it has to be done a certain way (and then develop into a routine/habit to do it in that manner so they become set in certain ways and then harder to do in other ways).

There is no one way suits all with this stuff and anyone who tells you "this will be the best way", isnt considering that fact.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

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Summerlander
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby Summerlander » 08 Jun 2014 19:17

taniaaust1 wrote:You are asking your question on a LD site so it is very likely you are receiving a completely different answer then if you asked this same question about differences at a OBE website, so you may want to pay that in mind that those here may not generally have had a OBE so may be of the view they are the same thing.


Forgive me for saying this, Tania, but I don't think the fact that this is a lucid dreaming website bears any relevance to the sort of response one is likely to get on the subject. Speaking for myself, I feel obliged to state the following: the stereotype you evinced has no validity at all as it has become patently clear, from experience (and I think everyone will agree), that a website that promotes one sort of view is likely to attract opponents just as much as adherents. (And there are always a few professed neutrals and self-righteous agnostics about, doing their best to either render the debate perpetually moot or quash it altogether with what they believe is an unassailable position.)

I moderate OBE4u.com and have also been a member of other websites about OBEs/AP/LD, such as, Astral Society; Astral Viewers; Astral Void; Astral Dynamics; Spiritual Forums; LD4all etc. As you can see by some of the names, I have been among many exposed to the belief-centric propagandist piffle of New Age, Spiritualism, Theosophy, and pseudo-scientific cults like Campbellism, and my response to the AP/LD question in each of these circles would be the same - one with a healthy scepticism.

taniaaust1 wrote:For myself, I was into OBE before I got into LD and find there is a difference. Its like asking, what is the difference between physical reality and a dream.. well one is real and one is just made from ones own subconciousness projections (dreams).


I came across the concept of OBEs before I found out about lucid dreaming, and let me tell you, I eventually discovered that there is only one valid difference between the two: in the latter, the experiencer is aware of the true nature of what is being experienced, i.e. a dream. Both phenomena, however, entail the phase state of the brain that I mentioned above: one involving waking consciousness and dreaming. Your analogy, I'm afraid, doesn't hold any water: whatever is being experienced, be it dream or reality, can feel real to the individual at the time. In fact, a dream can be said to feel real, and, at times, a real life experience can be so shocking as to be said to feel "unreal."

In the end, it is all about perception, and, in a similar vein to my counterargument of your analogy, lucid dreams can give practitioners the impression that they are somewhere other than where their sleeping bodies lie: this is, by definition, an out-of-body experience. (Emphasis on the word experience: note that, originally and rightfully, the "OBE" term does not empirically posit that the out-of-body state is the case, it merely tells that the individual has the experience of being "out-of-body" - thus, it still leaves room for the meritable interpretation that what is experienced is an illusion.)

taniaaust1 wrote: By this I mean that with OBE I can intereact some with the physical reality eg OBE people can at times go and see real physical things etc, find out things they couldnt have otherwise known or seen before etc.


I have "visited" people in the so-called OBE-state before and had a few "hits." But these hits are bound to coincidentally happen in the long run - a long run involving many misses. And we can't even categorically validate the hits when the subjects involved could be biased enough to make associations where there are none. Your argument is based on what makes the Barnum effect work for so-called psychics and sensationalism when it comes to remote viewing stories. It is the same excitement for pattern-spotting and tendency for familiarity that fuels pareidolia.

taniaaust1 wrote:People OBE have been known to go and pinch a physical person and leave a bruise (something which certainly cant be done if it was just a dream). People astral projected have been known to pose to a camera of a friend and have photos taken of them out of body etc etc (Ive seen a photo of that which someone at one of the groups I used to go to took).


Photos don't cut it, especially in this day and age. Nobody has ever proved, scientifically, that such things happen, so, it is irresponsible to prematurely claim that they do and that astral projection (travelling to astral planes in spirit), and "real-time zone" OBEs, are real. We have all come across Monroesque propaganda and some of us have read Robert Bruce's "Astral Dynamics" treatise - in the end, they are just ideas often passed on as truisms. Where is the evidence?

taniaaust1 wrote:If you think you are having OBEs I suggest to do some experimentation to find out if you actually are doing so or not.


I've done it so many times, and, so far, nothing. In fact, this is something that Stephen LaBerge, who, by and large, takes the hard-nosed approach, recommends in his "Exploring The World of Lucid Dreaming." If you believe the bedroom before you is the physical world, test it. Otherwise you're just having a WILD. This I can claim insofar as experience can ascertain: Every time I have made attempts to separate from my physical body I have always found myself lucidly gallivanting in a dream world capable of closely replicating the familiarity of my home environment. I am yet to come across someone who has had real OBEs and can prove it. You are welcome to visit me in the OBE-state and bruise my buttock if you like. That would certainly shut me up. :mrgreen:

taniaaust1 wrote:Anyway.. experiment.. it can be the best way to know if you are "just dreaming" or something more going on which just cant be explained by "dreaming".


I recommend the same thing. And be pragmatic.

taniaaust1 wrote:If a person is OBE instead of LD, one would to take more care on what they are doing eg you wouldnt want to go around pinching everyone you were coming across if it was leaving real bruises on physical people and there is other stuff out there if the experience is real, one shouldnt mess with (Ive twice got myself into trouble with real physical people due to a OBE thing eg I made my boyfriend of that time very angry as he thought I'd spied on him while hiding a present.. I found it thou while OBE).


You should go on the James Randi show. One million dollars is still up for grabs. 8-)

taniaaust1 wrote:One can get oneself into trouble if one is having astral experiences and not dreams eg I was going throu the traditional wiccian training period before initiation with a high priest of that religion and got OBE and decided to visit him. I was new at everything and didnt know better to not do this. I didnt know he'd have his house warded, I knew nothing about wards or things like this!!. I ended up having a hellish OBE experience, one of the scariest experiences in my life because I got caught up in his ward and couldnt get out of it till I tried to contact him and communicate I didnt mean no harm (I didnt understand why something attacked me trying to visit him till he explained to me what had happened and why.


You could still have had (in the completely subjective dream sense) a mere nightmare, and, having heard your account of it, the high priest fed you a pack of lies. Isn't this more feasible? Or don't you like this interpretation? Note again how religious sects claim to know more on such matters without any evidence whatsoever.

taniaaust1 wrote:That wasnt the only bad experience Ive had when "astral", I had another astral attack which left me physically blue in my lips and my face looking gastly etc (none of my nightmarish LDs have ever done stuff like that!). I dont think people should fear OBE thou, once again I was naive and had done something very stupid but which I knew no better and hence then had a bad OBE experience.


You are not giving the novice much confidence though. I have always found that sceptics and materialists have more success in avoiding nightmarish experiences than believers in the paranormal or endorsers of Robert Bruce's "self-defence to remove negs" malarkey. :geek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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nesgirl
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Re: What's the difference between astral projection and ld?

Postby nesgirl » 09 Jun 2014 00:38

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I dare you Summer and Deschain, to find where I am hiding, and try to attack.


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